Any experience of Kings Maths School vs LAE for 6th form?

[JusteanBiscuits]

My son has applied to KCLMS for 6th form and also to LAE Stratford.

He wants to study Maths at University, and truly loves the subject. His heart is set on KCLMS, but as that is entirely maths / physics, I wonder if going to LAE (his second choice) would be better for the all round experience? Meeting a wider variety of people, a much wider selection of extra curricular clubs etc. I worry the excitement at 16 of being immersed in maths might wear off, and being somewhere with a wider curriculum might be better?

Any experience would be appreciated. Thanks

Be quick - application deadline is the 25th.

As well as looking up open evenings/days (some of which have already happened) and making applications to apparently very competitive places, I wouldn't rule out looking or making applications to other options - if you're in London, there may well be more than 3 within a reasonable travelling distance. You don't have to decide about places now.

DS1 went to an 11-16 secondary school so didn't have the option to stay there, which he is sad about as he made a very good group of friends there and said his GCSE Maths teacher was brilliant. He applied to 5 schools/colleges and had offers from all of them to do Maths, FM, Physics and Philosophy. They included LAE Tottenham (I don't like the sound of LAE but felt that it was DS1's choice and didn't really tell him by opinions except when asked) - he was dithering between two choices until the last minute and was wondering if he'd made the right one in the first week of term (Woodhouse and Alexandra Park School). You've already said that the Woodhouse College site is too far away/too long a commute - in relation to Imperial - but there's probably a similar range of school sixth forms and colleges closer to you.

I don't know if students need to get all 9s at GCSE for KCLMS - I don't think they do for LAE, as DS1 needed between 5 and 7 GCSE at grade 7 or above for all offers to start in 2023, 8 in Maths to study FM (all offers) and an average of 7.5 in his best 8 GCSE grades (out of 9).

One thing to consider is how any college or school structures options, and chances for additional support. At APS DS1 did his Maths A level in one year and is doing FM this year (double time on the timetable each year). I thought this was more common than it is, but at Woodhouse students study both concurrently over two years. Now doing university applications, having one top A level grade in hand is by no means essential, but I think it's a positive. He's also been to some extension extra classes provided by a private school for extra curricular Maths/preparing for top university applications (which began early in year 12), and a 5 day summer school at UCL just before the beginning of this term, all offered free to state school students.

Good luck with his choices.

His school has a good 6th form, which will be his third choice, and he will be perfectly happy to stay there.

But maths is his absolute passion. He wants to apply for KCLMS and LAE because of the additional opportunities that would be available to him there. Such as extended work with universities, research, and being with like minded people. People are who interested in talking maths problems over lunch for example. This is very very much his choice - like I say, I didn't even do A-levels so I have always just presumed he would stay on at his school. His predicted GCSE grades are all 9's (though this might change after the current mocks he is sitting!), and distinction for FM.

We've been to quite a few virtual open evenings for 6th forms. These are the two that are too of HIS list.

We had a chat about Woodhouse / Imperial. It's somewhere that by road isn't all that far (an hour at rush hour, 25 mins in quiet traffic), but public transport is rubbish in that direction. I pointed out he'd likely be able to drive there half way though year 12, but he wasn't keen.

He starts an out of school maths course this weekend, so is hoping they might be able to give some 6th form advice too!

You don't need all 9s at GCSE for KCLMS
Lots of kids travel quite far to attend

No, but without any of the participation criteria in your favour, you need to be very very good at maths to have a chance of getting in. Apparently there is a student there travelling from Cambridge each day! That's not what we want though. Academics is important, but happiness and balance is much more important to us. Especially as son has a sporting passion too, so wants to be able to continue doing that.

OP I’d just say that if you aren’t someone who really loves maths, it can be difficult to understand how important it is for people who do!

My younger kid, who is good at maths but wouldn’t say he loves it, found KCLMS a bit stifling, especially socially - he’s pretty sociable and quite ‘normy’ (plays sports, has girlfriends, watches incomprehensible young men on YouTube talking about sharks) and KCLMS was an experience that he sort of put up with, for want of a better way of putting it. It’s called a ‘school’ for a reason; it’s quite strict (kids have to stay on site and work in free periods, no canteen, loads of work and very high standards.) He didn’t hate it, at all, and he wasn’t miserable there. But he (not me!) explicitly chose it over a local sixth form because he wanted a good shot at a top uni, and KCLMS gets brilliant A Level outcomes and uni offers. Without that factor he would have preferred a local college in a heartbeat and he freely says he would have had a better time there.

My older kid though sounds more like yours. He loves maths. For him, KCLMS was like heaven, and he’s still incredibly fond of it and keeps in touch with a lot of alumni and teachers.

I don’t know your son, obviously - but what I’m saying is that if he himself says he’s in love with maths, don’t underestimate the potential impact on him of being in a school where maths is explicitly prioritised and where he will be working alongside lots of really talented young mathmos and have real life mathmo mentors (and loads of curriculum enrichment). Unless the other schools you’re considering are extremely unusual, their maths provision will not come anywhere close. It absolutely changed my older son’s life, very much for the better. If you’re not mathsy yourself (and I’m not) it can be hard to understand how much this stuff matters to them!

Re private schools - I get the impression that private entrants were relatively rare, but I don’t know how far that was policy as opposed to not many private kids applying. As others have said the basic metric seemed to be ‘would this kid have the opportunity to get a really good maths education at their current/future A level school’. If you’re at a private school where A Level outcomes in maths aren’t particularly good, you might have a decent chance. (This is guesswork though!)

Thanks @PacificState , that's really useful.

Son is a bit of in-between.. does a sport he LOVES to a reasonable level, and has a great set of friends through it. Has a girlfriend that is long term, but uts also fairly low relationship - he puts academics before her (which compared to 16 year old me is 😲). But he has never found his 'people' at school really. So I guess this is what I was asking - should I encourage him to a school that is more rounded (for lack of a better term) or let him follow his maths obsession!

Would private options not be OK for him? Private is not a financial option for us and without a lottery win, won't be!!

He may as well apply to all those sixth forms he think will suit him. He doesn't need to choose which sixth form to attend until after GCSE results

If it were me I’d let him follow his gut, which sounds like KCLMS at the moment? As others have said, he won’t have to make an actual decision until results day in August. Might as well follow the process for now. Good luck!

the other thing I didn’t say is that while maths/FM/physics sounds like a very stifling choice of subjects to most of us, to someone who loves maths it is both appealing and satisfying - not stifling at all. A mathematician would think a history/English/politics combo was an absolute nightmare. And if you’re set on doing a maths-related degree (unless it’s economics) lack of practice in essay-writing is absolutely irrelevant. Also don’t let anyone tell you that only doing maths/FM/physics is always disadvantageous in uni applications - that’s not true for Oxbridge, Warwick, Bristol, UCL etc (see onward progression stats for Kings - one third into Oxbridge and all the rest into very competitive courses). Although Kings students don’t do so well at getting into Edinburgh or St Andrews afaik, and not sure how it affects Imperial who genuinely do prefer 4 A Levels I think.

KCLMS do offer economics and computer science courses as part of their wider curriculum (they used to be AS levels - not sure if they still are or just internal).

Someone mentioned up thread that they are adding philosophy too, and they've always done extended project work, so there are plenty of essay-writing opportunities.

You're right, it sounds as though students don't sit an AS Level at the end of Y12 any more https://www.kingsmathsschool.com/curriculum/our-courses My info is a few years' old! Interesting re philosophy, and wider choice of A Levels in general.

@Mathsc I’m surprised the EHCP didn’t override at least some of the entry criteria if there was a high score on the test. After the exam what sort of results/non-offer letter did your DS get?

id be interested in any thoughts you might have had about the SENCO/support available for EHCP students?

I may be wrong but I got the impression that they didn’t have any EHCP students!?

Yes, offering philosophy from Sept 25 according to the open evening

@upat4 at this year's online open evening they said that all students do A level Maths and Further Maths. There are then options in Physics, Computer Science, Economics and Philosophy. All students choose 2 of these options; sit AS in one at the end of Y12 and then take the other forward to A Level in Y13. Their students never/rarely take 4 A levels and instead do other things like EPQ and other enrichment "there is more to life than exams" is what they said which seemed very healthy!

So, it was explained in the open evening that all students do maths, further maths, physics and one of computer science / economics / philosophy in year 12. Then Year 13 they do Maths and FM, and then physics or the other option they took in Y12. The one they don't do in Y13 they would take as AS at end of Y12.

I think that makes sense

On the open evening I went to a parent asked if their child with an EHCP could skip the exam. They said they support all EHCP's but that the child would have to sit the entrance exam, but could have extra time etc as in a normal exam.

@JusteanBiscuits it's very usual that a young person with an EHCP has to pass the entrance tests. I am surprised that the parent asked?! In this case though I am surprised that KCMS's admissions policy doesn't have any weighting for EHCP. For KS3/4 admissions their places are allocated before all other admissions based on need. It's interesting that at KCMS their widening participation criteria doesn't include for those with disability or SEN/EHCP.

It's a specialist sixth form college, not a school, so the National Schools Admissions Code doesn't apply to them.

Their most recent SEN report says they had 1 student with an EHCP: www.kingsmathsschool.com/assets/pdf/sen-information-report-2023-4.pdf

I have a child at the KCLMS, and I just want to point out that the school is terrible at communicating with parents (as you will probably see through the application process). It doesn’t get better. They don’t even have parents evenings, just 10 minute zoom calls with non teaching staff.
Also, you may want to check that the schools values align with yours, as they have a very strong political agenda. I know one student who left after the first year because of it, and I have been shocked by it. They ‘teach’ this in their Personal Development curriculum, but it is woven into a lot of what they do.

Yes the comms are poor
The school is very woke
Sex ed has been outsourced to a dubious provider The School of Sexuality Education - Safe Schools Alliance UK
But the maths and physics is great!

We're a very woke family, and happily so, so the politics doesn't worry me at all.

I didn't know they would have sex education in 6th form to be honest! But it seems that teaching people how to have sex safely, to prevent injury and infection, and to enforce consent isn't a bad thing and something I think more schools should teach.

Anyone heard anything since applying? No info here about the entrance exams or open days