Cant decide between grammar school and local/comprehensive school.

[ThisIsSooooDifficult]

DS has passed the 11+ so has a chance at a grammar school place (school A). I’m looking for a school which will push him academically but also support a well rounded development and provide lots of experiences. A school that will support him where needed both academically and pastorally.

I get the feeling the local school (school B)
and another comprehensive school in another town (school C) achieve just as well, if not better, than the grammar school and offer more. I’m worried that passing up an almost guaranteed place at a grammar school will be a big mistake but I think the local school (B) or another comprehensive school (C) might be able to help him achieve academically whilst being better all round for him.

These are the three schools we will be naming, but need to decide on the order. (Yes, there are out 3 closest schools, discounting a comprehensive academy next to the grammar school).

School A:
The grammar school is 53 minutes door to door using public transport and walking at both ends. Children in our town do go to this school and maybe some from DS class will. There’s a scramble/high demand for places here.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.29, and middle is 0.64. Overall 0.45.
KS3 - As expected very academic curriculum.
KS4 - Everyone does English Lang and lit, maths, science x2/3 (decided by science department), RS, history or geography, French or German and one option. (9/10 GCSEs) Choices limited to humanities, languages, computer science, Music and Art.
Extra curricular - surprisingly limited e.g. sports, debating, maths.
Support/Pastoral - seems a bit like lip service to me but very vocal on how they support those under achieving by putting on after school classes (which are compulsory if you are identified as needing them).
Careers - sixth form and university only advised. I get the feeling I was laughed at when I mentioned degree apprenticeships.

School B:
The local school is a 15 minute walk door to door. Children from our town definitely go to this school. The majority of DS class will go here. Children from the grammar school town also go to our local school if they don’t pass the 11+ because it’s a lot better than the comprehensive in their town. Children from lots of other towns and villages fight for a place here as well including children from the town of our School C. Usually lots of appeals for a place.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.16, middle 0.36. Overall 0.33 (inc low)
KS3 - Typical comprehensive curriculum with academic and vocational subjects. They offer things like John Muir award and DofE.
KS4 - All expected to achieve grade 4+ in ebacc do English lan and lit, maths, science x3, history or geog, French or German and then have one more option (9 GCSEs). Range of academic and vocational to choose from.
Extra curricular - Just about everything you can think from theatre to sports and electronics to debating and environmental group to rowing. They also have additional subjects like Spanish, Latin and astronomy all of which can be taken for GCSE.
Pastoral/Support - Evident throughout the school. Have a good SEND reputation and have the same form tutor who gets to know when throughout KS3 and then swap for KS4.
Careers - Very good careers advice, engagement with the community and bringing people in. Support all pathways after school/sixth form.

School C:
A third school is 32 minutes door to door using public transport and walking. Very few (if any) children in our town go to this school although there is a lot of competition for places from other towns and villages with poor schools.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.45, middle 0.36. Overall 0.41 (inc low).
KS3 - Typical comprehensive curriculum.
KS4 - They are put on pathways but if expected to get 4+ in ebacc (likely) will do English Lang and lit, maths, science x2/3 (science department decides in Y10), history or geography, French or Spanish and 2 options (9 or 10 GCSEs). Biggest range of choices.
Extra curricular - a decent range of sports, drama and music.
Support/Pastoral - Specialist school for autism but this seems to transfer out to all the kids whatever they need help with. The usual of a new form tutor every year.
Careers - Good. Work with the community. Promote all pathways after school and sixth form.

Ive also attached some results form the school performer website for all three of the schools.

Which order would you put them, and why? No opinion is a wrong opinion. I’m just really confused and worried I’m going to do the wrong thing an looking to see how other a would approach this.

This must the be first time I’ve ever seen something like that and the worry is that the local school is out performing the grammar school!

I think in terms of academics, your school C is possibly the one I would go for. It’s a shorter journey compared to the grammar school (I feel this is important for secondary aged children) and provides some of that “all-roundness” you are looking for. The downside is the lack of local friends which I would say is part of the “all-roundness”. Depending on how frequent the public transport is to allow your DS to go see his friends after school or on a weekend, I would say this was a nice compromise.

For “all-roundness” and opportunities I would go for your school B. The academics are a bit worse but it does look like they are trying with the high attainers. Don’t knock anything positive when it comes to P8. Taking into consideration you probably loose a few to the grammar school and the high attainers in these results are probably the lower end of the high attainers (assuming here that they all were at the lower end of the 11+ scores and not selected from grammar school) I can’t see anything wrong with the academics. (Does your school C also loose high attainers to the grammar school? If they do they are doing extremely well, if they don’t, then I see nothing wrong with your school B). Your school B certainly provides “all-roundness” with all the extra curricular and has the added bonus of being local/walkable.

Which is harder to get into? Could you put A #1 and if you changed your mind in say May next year, would you be high up enough on the admissions criteria to get a place off the waitlist at School B?

DS is in Year 7 at a school that sounds like A. He goes to after school clubs outside of the school such as basketball, swimming, football and scouts.

Does the level of homework allow for after school clubs? DS gets 1.5 hours a day which gives him time. I know some of the high performing schools set 3 hours which wouldn't give time.

School C doesn’t loose anyone to the grammar school (as far as I’m aware). From us, the town with school C is the apposite direction to the grammar school. So it would be about 90 minutes each way on the bus for any of the kids that went there. Not saying that there aren’t any. There may be some taken by parents in cars. But no, school C are not as affected by the loss of kids to grammar school as our town is. We are quite heavily impacted. Usually anyone who can pass the 11+ will apply and then go there is they get offered a place. I am bucking the trans by considering turning it down.

Look at the A8 data. That shows raw attainment, rather than the improvement upon an already high achieving cohort.

Still limited to those who have KS2 SATs data, but would give more of an idea whether they're working wonders with all groups.

I would say, when applying for Y7, B is the easiest for us to get into. A (assuming a high enough score) and C are equally as hard but if it came down to distance C is possibly easier.
All three schools, after Y7, are very difficult to get into. Almost impossible. It’s a make a choice and stick with it situation. There is very little movement as all 3 are heavily oversubscribed. The only real movement is into the comp next to the grammar school (which we certainly do not want).

You say you want an academic school so I’d avoid looking at P8 and instead contact the schools directly to find out what their percentage of 7-9 is in both core and optional subjects. Secondly, ask your son. What does he prefer?

Interesting @ThisIsSooooDifficult

Well you have a great choice as I am sure you are aware. Excellent P8 throughout wow. In fact the grammar is not as much ahead of the two comps as you might expect (well actually behind in some areas).

I don't personally think the grammar is a no brainer - that is a long commute. I have a long commute to work and sometimes I think ughhhh it's a pain - and it is less than that. I had to get the bus and walk to grammar and I hated it. Tho some say their kids love it. I also suffered from not meeting up with friends outside school (v rural area) but that is probably less of an issue these days (parents more willing to transport!)

Another concern with the grammar might be lack of options- - so no GCSE drama, technology - DT, food, textiles, graphics - or PE? would this be a concern to you and DC? All of my DC took one of those subjects for GCSE.

Finally I love the sound of the extra options at school B - Latin and Spanish as extra GCSEs yes please! And it's a 15-min walk away. Do not underestimate this. School B would be my choice tbh.

You make good points but I would look at this slightly differently. I see A as providing the academics the OP is looking for and maintains the local link. OP mentioned that there are others in their town attending the grammar school so there will be local friends. School C doesn’t provide the local connection and will make their DS life harder as a result. School C might have more options but I think the OP, whether they realise it or not, is looking for an academic school. The evidence is there from what has been mentioned and the data provided. So, from my point of view, I would be saying stick with the grammar school. It’s surprising how much socialising teenagers can do for 40-50 minutes on a bus. Plus, there social/extra curricular activities could be done in the local area so I wouldn’t be worrying about that. With this in mind I would then be putting C as a second preference as this maintains the academics and it sounds like B is a safe 3rd preference and still does well with academics. The OP can’t really go wrong with school B as a banker school.
That said, I would still have the grammar school as first preference but would be seriously considering B. As I mentioned, the academics aren’t that bad and maintain the local connection. I’m not sure C would sway it for me purely on academics.

I would question the emphasis placed on pastoral and SEND. Is this something that is a high priority for you @ThisIsSooooDifficult?

Go around the schools, and see what feels ‘right’.

We had a similar quandary between two schools, grammar (won place on appeal) and no -grammar. Does he potentially be brightest at non-grammar (husbands choice) or go to grammar (and be af lower end).

We went for grammar and not regretted it. One of the main reasons was that if he didn’t like grammar, then would be easy to get him into non-grammar. Almost impossible to go the other way. Not regretted the decision.

53mins is too much commute imo, especially relying on public transport.

I dont think it’s a no brainer at all. If it was the OP wouldn’t be asking.

Grammar isn’t always the best option.

For example, we deliberately sent ours to the local high performing comp rather than a grammar even though her academics were good as we knew the pressure she puts herself under is unhealthy. If she went from top 20 % to bottom 20% by virtue of the “competition” within the school, even if she was scoring the same grades, it would destroy her already fragile self esteem.

Best decision we made. she is on for majority 7-9 grades at the comp and has a wider choice of subjects to study. She is very happy there.

Thank you. These decisions are not always as obvious as you think, especially if you’re lucky enough to have other good options nearby. I think the child’s personality, options for GCSE, pastoral care etc all need to be considered when choosing the right school. “It’s a grammar” is not a good enough reason alone.

How easily did your son pass the grammar school exam and what level of tutoring did that involve?

Where (roughly) do you think that would put him ability wise for each of the schools.

I don’t think just squeeeeeeeezing into the grammar school would make for a very happy life. Alternatively - if he is comfortably grammar school material and most people choose the grammar school over school B then he may find that he is very high ability for that school which also won’t be fun.

So I guess my answer is:-

Very top end of grammar school - go for grammar school
Comfortably into grammar school - either grammar or C
Just squeezed in - B or C.

Agree @clary we have some excellent choices. Nothing we can complain about. It’s the reason they are all so oversubscribed because some of the schools further away achieve nowhere near the three we are looking at.

I’m glad others have said that it’s not an obvious decision. Makes me feel slight better that I’m not overthinking something and this it does deserve this amount of deliberation.

Great to hear your first hand experience of the same dilemma @Tiredalwaystired its very reassuring.

Some great points make for all the schools and lots of points made for me to have a think about. I’ll have a look more intro the A8 and see what the schools say about their 7-9 breakdowns.

@NeedSleepLotsOfSleep no, SEND isn’t something that is especially important but I wanted to have a look because if they have a good culture of looking after those who need it this will (usually) be replicated throughout the school. I do think good general pastoral support is important though.

It’s been mentioned that I’m maybe subconsciously looking for an academic school. Potentially yes. But also the data I provided is geared towards high attainers because I wanted to compare apples with apples and not apples with oranges. As DS has passed the 11+ it made sense to look at high and middle rather than low.

Normal in the semi rural environment I live in, for grammars or non- grammars.

20 minutes by car. 45 + minutes by public transport.

I would go for B, it sounds like a better all round experience. Second choice A. Don't underestimate the importance of local friends and a short commute (coming from someone who went to a "better" school that was a 50 min, 2 bus journey away).

Grammar isn’t always the best option.

For example, we deliberately sent ours to the local high performing comp rather than a grammar even though her academics were good as we knew the pressure she puts herself under is unhealthy. If she went from top 20 % to bottom 20% by virtue of the “competition” within the school, even if she was scoring the same grades, it would destroy her already fragile self esteem.

Same here - (well decided for us as she didn't get into grammar) she is now y13 and a far happier child than if she had been in the grammar viewing herself as dumb. She had the choice to go there for y12 and stayed where she was. Her grades could not have been any better at the grammar so she didn't lose out.

I'm surprised at so many ppl saying school C tbh. It has better P8 but then if school B has grammar cream-off it's perhaps not surprising it is lower? Also IMHO a local school attended by friends and one where socialising with them will be easy may well trump a higher P8.

We certainly prioritised local over P8 and I am not sorry we did.

@Mumofteenandtween
In all honesty we did very little tutoring. We went through a few past papers to look at how to answer them and what the structure would be. We were of the opinion that excessive tutoring to pass wouldn’t do him any favours in the long run. We wanted him to stand on his own two feet and be comfortable with the pace of grammar school if he goes.
He didn’t get the best score but one that will guarantee him a place (assuming we don’t loose out on distance). It also wasn’t one of the lowest scores. It was a middle of the road kind of score. Of which we are very proud of him for.
Ability wise he would be in the middle for grammar school, towards the top for C and at the top for B. I think all three schools have the ability to stretch him. I don’t think he would be lost in grammar school.

Wow I wish we had state schools like that around here!!!

I am being swayed towards the grammar. To be “middle of the road” without tutoring makes me suspect that on a level playing field he would be higher than that. (Remember parents lie about how much tutoring they do!)

The distance is horrible though. Any chance of moving?

Are they all 11-18 schools? I would look at the absence rates; KS4 at 5 plus in EBACC; KS5 choices, attainment and leaver destinations, especially percentage into RG universities.

Chance of moving, probably not going to happen in the short term. Mine and DH jobs are already around an hours drive away and moving closer to the grammar school would make us near 90 minutes. New working patterns would need to be negotiated (or a new job found).
Plus I have a younger DD and moving closer to the grammar school may put us at risk of not getting a place at our current local school if she doesn’t pass the 11+. (Our local school is a lot lot better than the comp near the grammar school, and that’s not solely based on academics and grammar cream-off, there are issues there)
That’s said, children do get places in our local school from the grammar school town so I know it’s not a done deal that we wouldn’t get a place. This needs more thought from me. But in reality, no in the short term, maybe in a few years.