Cant decide between grammar school and local/comprehensive school.

[ThisIsSooooDifficult]

DS has passed the 11+ so has a chance at a grammar school place (school A). I’m looking for a school which will push him academically but also support a well rounded development and provide lots of experiences. A school that will support him where needed both academically and pastorally.

I get the feeling the local school (school B)
and another comprehensive school in another town (school C) achieve just as well, if not better, than the grammar school and offer more. I’m worried that passing up an almost guaranteed place at a grammar school will be a big mistake but I think the local school (B) or another comprehensive school (C) might be able to help him achieve academically whilst being better all round for him.

These are the three schools we will be naming, but need to decide on the order. (Yes, there are out 3 closest schools, discounting a comprehensive academy next to the grammar school).

School A:
The grammar school is 53 minutes door to door using public transport and walking at both ends. Children in our town do go to this school and maybe some from DS class will. There’s a scramble/high demand for places here.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.29, and middle is 0.64. Overall 0.45.
KS3 - As expected very academic curriculum.
KS4 - Everyone does English Lang and lit, maths, science x2/3 (decided by science department), RS, history or geography, French or German and one option. (9/10 GCSEs) Choices limited to humanities, languages, computer science, Music and Art.
Extra curricular - surprisingly limited e.g. sports, debating, maths.
Support/Pastoral - seems a bit like lip service to me but very vocal on how they support those under achieving by putting on after school classes (which are compulsory if you are identified as needing them).
Careers - sixth form and university only advised. I get the feeling I was laughed at when I mentioned degree apprenticeships.

School B:
The local school is a 15 minute walk door to door. Children from our town definitely go to this school. The majority of DS class will go here. Children from the grammar school town also go to our local school if they don’t pass the 11+ because it’s a lot better than the comprehensive in their town. Children from lots of other towns and villages fight for a place here as well including children from the town of our School C. Usually lots of appeals for a place.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.16, middle 0.36. Overall 0.33 (inc low)
KS3 - Typical comprehensive curriculum with academic and vocational subjects. They offer things like John Muir award and DofE.
KS4 - All expected to achieve grade 4+ in ebacc do English lan and lit, maths, science x3, history or geog, French or German and then have one more option (9 GCSEs). Range of academic and vocational to choose from.
Extra curricular - Just about everything you can think from theatre to sports and electronics to debating and environmental group to rowing. They also have additional subjects like Spanish, Latin and astronomy all of which can be taken for GCSE.
Pastoral/Support - Evident throughout the school. Have a good SEND reputation and have the same form tutor who gets to know when throughout KS3 and then swap for KS4.
Careers - Very good careers advice, engagement with the community and bringing people in. Support all pathways after school/sixth form.

School C:
A third school is 32 minutes door to door using public transport and walking. Very few (if any) children in our town go to this school although there is a lot of competition for places from other towns and villages with poor schools.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.45, middle 0.36. Overall 0.41 (inc low).
KS3 - Typical comprehensive curriculum.
KS4 - They are put on pathways but if expected to get 4+ in ebacc (likely) will do English Lang and lit, maths, science x2/3 (science department decides in Y10), history or geography, French or Spanish and 2 options (9 or 10 GCSEs). Biggest range of choices.
Extra curricular - a decent range of sports, drama and music.
Support/Pastoral - Specialist school for autism but this seems to transfer out to all the kids whatever they need help with. The usual of a new form tutor every year.
Careers - Good. Work with the community. Promote all pathways after school and sixth form.

Ive also attached some results form the school performer website for all three of the schools.

Which order would you put them, and why? No opinion is a wrong opinion. I’m just really confused and worried I’m going to do the wrong thing an looking to see how other a would approach this.

Despite my behaviour policy comment, B does sound the best option here.

DD has friends who live an hour away from school with terrible public transport and their parents spend a lot of time ferrying they into our town at the weekends. It will get even worse when the parties start in earnest.

Glad to see you’re making progress @ThisIsSooooDifficult.

Have you looked at OFSTED? You can take it with a pinch of salt, I do, but it can have useful things in it like “what the school needs to do to improve” and you can trend over time whether the school is consistently “Good” (or whatever) or whether it’s bouncing between “Good” and “RI” (or whatever). You can then see whether the school has taken on-board and implemented the things mentioned in the report. I like to see a school that’s open to improvement, tries to improve and shows it’s improving, even if it doesn’t have the best OFSTED grades. (Schools should have an improvement plan, worth a look if you can get hold of it to see if it fits with your ideals and the school is going in the direction you will be happy with for the next 5-7 years). A steady OFSTED grade is better than a bouncing one. A quick skim read might also highlight things which you think are very good and win you over, or very bad and make you go “over my dead body”. (I also appreciate OFSTED are politically motivated and they don’t cover things most people really care about, I also appreciate they are no longer giving out grades and have moved/are moving to a report style ‘thing’, please don’t shoot me).

OP, if options B and C are grammar equivalents, your DS is happy with them, he can surely invest his extra commute time into enriching himself. Selective school friendships is an oxymoron for me. I choose a school for school only and if there is a chance of friendships, that's bonus.

In my area, grammar schools aren't actually grammars anymore. Our local one is the worst school in the area

B
You have great options. You have researched well. You both like B. Stick with it!
B sounds like a fantastic school.
I have worked in grammars and comps, and wouldn't necessarily choose grammar. In fact, my children probably won't even take the test.
Think of his improved quality of life, being able to walk to school.

My take on the data of students staying on into 6th form being higher for A than B may be due to higher entry requirements for A. My DS goes to grammar and lost half their class between year 11 and 12 due to grades not high enough to stay on and all went elsewhere to study A levels.

Persist absence at the grammar is 30%? That is very high. That means 30% of kids miss more than 10% of their education.

There will always be some kids who have long term health issues and miss lots of school, so all schools have some persistent absences, but at 30% it looks like a lot of mental health problems or bunking off. Looks like a lot of unhappy children.

OP I think your heart is set on B. Your DS sounds keen on both A & B. No point in journeying to C if your DS isn’t in love with it. The stats suggest A isn’t great. Progress 8 are overrated and can be manipulated. But the range of scores you have given make me think the grammar isn’t worth the travel. It means friends are more spread out. Fine for some kids, less good for others. Key thing is where your child will be happiest and will be most likely to find his tribe.

Honestly, you can only make the best decision you can at the time. You can never know for sure, and there is always the possibility of change.

I think you think B is best.

Why is the attainment 8 (64.1) so low at the Grammar school? Do you live in an area where it is fairly easy to get in to grammar schools? I don't think the A8 or the P8 score at the grammar is worth the extended journey and lack or extras. The attainment 8 score at our closest (admittedly super selective) grammar is 84.1. One of the comps has an A8 of 64.4 near me.

There are lots of reasons that A8 being lower is actually because the school is doing things that benefit the pupils. Eg maths GCSE. If you take it a year early then you take further maths the school's A8 for that class plummets.

Maths is double weighted.

This is why at comps the top maths set might sit further maths the year before GCSE maths.

If they offer a wide range of subjects and don't force the ebacc that also impacts A8.

@sashh We can see that they do enforce the ebacc from how they group GCSE subjects , as described in the OP. So it seems unlikely that they have a large number of students sitting GCSE maths early. OP could ask them to check on that though. But going on what we know I would say that is a poor A8 score for a grammar and not worth the downsides the school.

B. Don’t underestimate the huge benefit of how close it is, sounds like a much richer environment and it’s a clearly a perfectly fine school for academic kids if some are going to Oxbridge from there.

The only very tiny reservation I might have is that you need to be sure that behaviour and discipline are good and that kids who don’t want to learn don’t disrupt things for those who do, especially in earlier years if not yet streamed (I speak from my own personal comp experience).

Considering there are 3458 secondary schools in the UK and only 12,470 undergraduates at Oxford and 12,940 at Cambridge, I find it quite amazing that there are 2 local comprehensives near Mumsnetters accounting for 24 Oxbridge entrants. If we divide the total undergrads by 3 for the average degree course, that's an average of 2.4 entrants per year group per school. It's very impressive indeed to have 12!

Our school also include medicine within their”Oxbridge” numbers as they are just as competitive to get into. That can mean 12 Oxbridge quality students even if they end up at Imperial for example.

I think that says more about the bias in who reads and posts on mumsnet than anything else.

13 Oxbridge entrants would put a school in the top 20 state/grammar schools in the country though, so that really is very exceptional. If I could be bothered to go through the list of 20 and filter out all the grammar schools and 6th form colleges to find which ones were comprehensive secondary schools, maybe I could even pinpoint the exact school.

So they didn't get an Oxbridge offer? They might include them in their own mind but you can't say that you had 12 students getting into Oxbridge when actually you had 6 Oxbridge offers and 6 students who went to study medicine somewhere else. Why pick medicine anyway? Dentistry is more competitive than medicine.

Ok picky - medicine, dentistry and veterinary

And it’s not that they “didn’t get” iOxbridge offers - they chose alternative destinations without applying there.

Also I’m not the one that said 12

It very well might but I don't think anyone said 13, highest mentioned was 12, and that was described as a "superselective grammar". The other mention was a "non selective state school" that "nearly did as well", so less than 12. And it's possible that PP was talking about a sixth-form college, many of which are huge.

But my assertions are that (1) there is a huge variation in Oxbridge outcomes between state schools, even comprehensives, (2) which students attend these schools isn't completely random, in particular many or most at the schools with great Oxbridge outcomes will be there because their parents went out of their way to put them there, and (3) these parents are disproportionately likely to be on mumsnet.

We agree that there do exist state comprehensives which have put 12 or more students into Oxbridge in recent years. The question is not how common these schools are (we agree not very common). The question is how likely is it that at least one of the parents at these schools is on mumsnet and is willing to post. I maintain: very likely.

A lot of top studnets from comprehensive schools will do A levels in high performing sixth form college or private schools. So whatever Oxbridge number will be distorted.

It doesn't matter which degrees they are doing or if they would have got an offer if they'd applied. A school cannot say "We had X students accepted at Oxbridge last year," if in actual fact they had Y number of students accepted at Oxbridge and Z number of students accepted onto medicine, dentistry and veterinary courses. Well, they could, but that would be a lie. The number of students accepted into Oxford and Cambridge isn't flexible based on what the school decides counts as almost as good as an Oxford or Cambridge place.

i think you’re overthinking what’s been said. I never meant they LITERALLY said these people went to Oxbridge I said they speak of them all in one high performer language - Oxbridge as shorthand. It’s very clearly spelled out what their final destinations were. You’re getting your knickers in a twist here. No one has been misled at any stage.

Assuming detentions aren’t given for minor misdemeanours then B. Apart from anything else it saves your son about 7 - 8 hours a week in travel. And you both like it.