Cant decide between grammar school and local/comprehensive school.

[ThisIsSooooDifficult]

DS has passed the 11+ so has a chance at a grammar school place (school A). I’m looking for a school which will push him academically but also support a well rounded development and provide lots of experiences. A school that will support him where needed both academically and pastorally.

I get the feeling the local school (school B)
and another comprehensive school in another town (school C) achieve just as well, if not better, than the grammar school and offer more. I’m worried that passing up an almost guaranteed place at a grammar school will be a big mistake but I think the local school (B) or another comprehensive school (C) might be able to help him achieve academically whilst being better all round for him.

These are the three schools we will be naming, but need to decide on the order. (Yes, there are out 3 closest schools, discounting a comprehensive academy next to the grammar school).

School A:
The grammar school is 53 minutes door to door using public transport and walking at both ends. Children in our town do go to this school and maybe some from DS class will. There’s a scramble/high demand for places here.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.29, and middle is 0.64. Overall 0.45.
KS3 - As expected very academic curriculum.
KS4 - Everyone does English Lang and lit, maths, science x2/3 (decided by science department), RS, history or geography, French or German and one option. (9/10 GCSEs) Choices limited to humanities, languages, computer science, Music and Art.
Extra curricular - surprisingly limited e.g. sports, debating, maths.
Support/Pastoral - seems a bit like lip service to me but very vocal on how they support those under achieving by putting on after school classes (which are compulsory if you are identified as needing them).
Careers - sixth form and university only advised. I get the feeling I was laughed at when I mentioned degree apprenticeships.

School B:
The local school is a 15 minute walk door to door. Children from our town definitely go to this school. The majority of DS class will go here. Children from the grammar school town also go to our local school if they don’t pass the 11+ because it’s a lot better than the comprehensive in their town. Children from lots of other towns and villages fight for a place here as well including children from the town of our School C. Usually lots of appeals for a place.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.16, middle 0.36. Overall 0.33 (inc low)
KS3 - Typical comprehensive curriculum with academic and vocational subjects. They offer things like John Muir award and DofE.
KS4 - All expected to achieve grade 4+ in ebacc do English lan and lit, maths, science x3, history or geog, French or German and then have one more option (9 GCSEs). Range of academic and vocational to choose from.
Extra curricular - Just about everything you can think from theatre to sports and electronics to debating and environmental group to rowing. They also have additional subjects like Spanish, Latin and astronomy all of which can be taken for GCSE.
Pastoral/Support - Evident throughout the school. Have a good SEND reputation and have the same form tutor who gets to know when throughout KS3 and then swap for KS4.
Careers - Very good careers advice, engagement with the community and bringing people in. Support all pathways after school/sixth form.

School C:
A third school is 32 minutes door to door using public transport and walking. Very few (if any) children in our town go to this school although there is a lot of competition for places from other towns and villages with poor schools.
The P8 for high attainers is 0.45, middle 0.36. Overall 0.41 (inc low).
KS3 - Typical comprehensive curriculum.
KS4 - They are put on pathways but if expected to get 4+ in ebacc (likely) will do English Lang and lit, maths, science x2/3 (science department decides in Y10), history or geography, French or Spanish and 2 options (9 or 10 GCSEs). Biggest range of choices.
Extra curricular - a decent range of sports, drama and music.
Support/Pastoral - Specialist school for autism but this seems to transfer out to all the kids whatever they need help with. The usual of a new form tutor every year.
Careers - Good. Work with the community. Promote all pathways after school and sixth form.

Ive also attached some results form the school performer website for all three of the schools.

Which order would you put them, and why? No opinion is a wrong opinion. I’m just really confused and worried I’m going to do the wrong thing an looking to see how other a would approach this.

Yes, all 11-18 schools. I’ll look into those data in more detail. That’s for the point in that direction.

Have you visited them? Did you like them all equally when you visited? Does your DC have a preference at all?

My children all went to Grammar. They were amongst children that wanted to learn and achieve.Their cohort came from different backgrounds but all are successful,happy adults .I definitely think that traveling can be a problem. My children were at schools that had kids who only had 30 mins to get to school.

Why do people do that? I just don’t get it, particularly in classes where everyone is obsessively studying for the exam. Children do talk 🤷‍♀️

Mixed or single sex ?
What does he want ?
We didn't send ours to the local grammar as they wanted to go to the very good other choice school ...they both did well ..here they moved at the end Year 8 at that time .

Tbh, that doesn't sound like a great grammar school to me. I wouldn't worry about choosing one of the other schools if you think it's a better fit!

I’ve heard a lot of negative things about grammar schools recently. Unhealthy competition between kids and their parents, teachers and kids under serious pressure to perform, all about academic results and not providing a rounded education, high percentage of kids with poor mental health, kids used to spoon fed learning and unable at degree level to learn for themselves, huge amounts of home work not allowing for time to socialise or out of school clubs. I know of a few families that have removed their kids from grammars recently. Parents are realising that kids happiness is not worth sacrificing for the academic results which can more than likely be obtained elsewhere.

I would pick the grammar provided that your ds liked it on an open day, and that he doesn't have a strong desire/ability in a more vocational subject they don't offer. I think the overall atmosphere and educational value in a grammar is higher. I think based on his results your ds will do well.

I think the journey to the grammar is too long (that 53 minutes is very exact, which makes me think you used Google maps or similar. That's different to actually doing the journey, particularly in morning rush hour when I suspect you will be looking at over an hour and maybe well over an hour when factoring in traffic and normal bus lateness etc).
Those results also suggest that the grammar doesn't actually provide as much of the "uplift" on results that you might expect given its selective intake.

On the other hand, you have a massively local school (instantly giving your child 2 extra hours in the day to do what they want, much easier and quicker socialising, far more ad hoc opportunities) which seems to get really good results given its comprehensive intake (and especially its proximity to a grammar area) and offers a wider range of opportunities.

I'm struggling to see what advantages C has over B or A (and I think pathways can be restricting for some children) and surprised so many have mentioned it.

The grammar only has 55% high attainers, so isn’t really a typical grammar. I wouldn’t travel 55 mins for that, even with good results. GCSEs are hard and with only one option he could end up really miserable. I’d suggest C, based on gcse options.

My son squeezed into his superselective grammar. Finished 1 of 12 Oxbridge entrants in his year, 4 A*s now on course for a first. Some people rise to the challenge.

Depends on your child, what does your DC want?
I had one go to the local church secondary and one to grammar. The one who went to the secondary was happy being top of their year and would have struggled being middling although was bullied for being a swat. Did 6th form at the grammar because no relevant subjects at the secondary.
My grammar DC was a constant frustration to the school because my DC performed below par (they did find out they are dyslexic which the junior missed).
Both my DC have achieved well in their fields but both chose their schools.

What does DS want?

There is no point sending him to a place with 50 extra curriculars if he isn't interested in them.

I think the friendships / social side of things would be what I would think about. If you want your ds to make local friends, go to the gym after school, meet up at weekends easily etc, then B would be the choice. But if you want them to stay in or be a taxi service then A.

Surely the most important consideration is what DS wants to do. Have you asked him?

For a super selective I’m surprised it’s only 12. Our comp had 4 oxbridge and 5 medical students last year. I guess it depends partly on the size of the school though.

Gut feel on visiting would play a large part for me.

How do the non-grammar schools treat the brightest pupils? Do they stream, and if so when, how and in which subjects? Do not underestimate the role boredom can have if a clever child is made to repeat stuff or go at a slow pace because that is the best that the rest of the class can do.
Do the brightest have the opportunity to take an extra GCSE (or two) if they would like to?
You mention extra curricular - is your DS the type to take up these opportunities. Whilst it's great a school offers rowing or debating or orchestras, would your DS be interested in taking part?
I wouldn't worry too much about the 6th form offering at this stage - lots of students move for Y12-13.

Only 12? Our non selective state school with a high migrant intake nearly did as well as that!

All schools are mixed. We don’t have any single sex schools in the county (that I am aware of).

@redskydarknight Aha yes, they are from Google maps. I knew the grammar school was about 50-60 minutes from other locals and Google for confirmed it for me. I was checking bus times and frequencies at the same time. I wrote it down as part of the confirmation and forgot to change it 55-60 minutes to account for variables.
Same for school C. I guesstimated 30-40 on the bus and Google confirmed it was 32.

A few asking whether we have visited and which DS prefers and/or which I prefer.

Yes, we have visited all the schools (more than once).
DS seemed to like B, he’s spoken about it how he liked it when we visited, he has mentioned about the extracurriculars and how he could do X, Y and Z, so I’m taking it that he would like B and be comfortable there. He also says he likes A, but all the talk has been about how X and Y have also passed the 11+. I can’t quite work out whether he likes A and wants to go there or it’s all talk about the exam and because it’s a grammar school that’s where your supposed to go. I need to get to the bottom of this. When asked whether he liked C he also liked that. When asked which he preferred I got an “I don’t know” shrugged shoulders response (he’s turning into a teenager already…..). When asked which he preferred out of A and B he didn’t know, A and C he chose A and B and C he chose B. So I think we’re really now looking at between A and B. C is going down 3rd preference.

I personally preferred A and B. I can’t really get to the bottom of why. I think I’m drawn to A for the reason it’s a grammar school, meant to be a better education and more life chances, more like minded children and parents. The journey really puts me off, but I know others do it every day so it’s not like it isn’t doable or something out of the ordinary. B on the other hand I get a really good feeling from. The whole places seems to me a welcoming environment. They do push academically but have all the roundness and extras that the grammar school doesn’t seem to have.

I’ve had a look into all the suggested data points so far and done a little comparison, so this post is a little data heavy. (Sorry).

A8: The grammar school for the high attainers in 70.1 and B is 66.6. For the middle attainers A is 55.8 and B is 50.4. However, taking into consideration B has grammar cream off so has lost several high attainers and the grammar school won’t have taken the bottom of the middle attainers, I can’t see a lot of difference. Throwing school C into the mix, because this is truly comprehensive, C gets 70.1 for high attainers and they have all their high attainers and 50.6 for the middle prior attainers and they have all the middle just like our local school. Maybe someone who can read more into the data/understands the data better than I do might say different or see something I’m not seeing but, the way I’m seeing it, the A8 between the schools isn’t that much different when everything is considered.

When I dug intro the data a bit more, I have found the grammar school does better for girls than boys. (I couldn’t break these down by prior attainment so these include the whole school). Boys have P8 of 0.4 (girls 0.5), boys have A8 of 62.0 (girls 65.2), boys English and maths 5+ 89% (girls 100%). The pattern for everything else is pretty similar.
B on the other hand is opposite. Boys have P8 of 0.39 (girls 0.26) boys have A8 of 53.2 (girls 52.4), boys English and maths 5+ 65% (girls 60%). The pattern for everything else is pretty similar.

For leavers data.
A - 99%
B - 98%
Interestingly it looks like more stay in at the schools sixth form at B (64% of those staying in education) than they do at A (58%)

Absence, again B outperforming A.
A - 10.1% overall, 30% persistent
B - 8.6% overall, 15.2% persistent

Sixth form. I know it’s a long way off but looks to be better at B.
Average points achieved are similar for best 3 A levels: A - 34.3 and B - 34.15.
Completion: A - 92.4% and B 97.6%
AAB with 2 facilitating subjects: A - 20.7% and B - 26.3%
Destinations after sixth form
A - 86% (61% staying in education, 4% to apprenticeships and the rest to employment)
B - 97% (64% staying in education the rest to apprenticeships)
Our local rag newspaper did some number crunching (so I’m not sure how this matches up to any of the other official data I’ve mentioned so far) from this years leavers and says, of those going to university.
A - 24% to Russel group, 2% to Oxbridge
B - 36% to Russel group, 6% to Oxbridge.
A website search does confirm B sent more to Oxbridge than A this year.

Based on the data and my own gut feelings I’m leaning towards B. However, I still have this niggling feeling that we will be throwing away something if we don’t choose A. (Perhaps I’m struggling with parent peer pressure?) Think it’s time to get to the bottom of which DS really wants to go to (something to try and get out of him later today).

Do you have an idea of the behaviour policies? I would check those out and see if they align with your ethos. I just couldn’t get on board with how draconian and punitive the non grammar school near us is, so our decision was easy. But I know another mum who went with the comp as she loves that sort of thing, so it is horses for courses.

You need to be sure you consider the choice as

A plus an hour commute each way and (probably) no local friends so much less socialising out of school or a lot of need for facilitating from yourself

versus

B plus short walk to school with local friends

Consider, for example, if this were a job with A offering more money. How much more money, and how much better a job, would it have to offer to be worth the extra commute?

Consider after school clubs and how he will get home in the dark if you choose the grammar. We moved house for an incredible state secondary, so 23 ish minute walk to school, 20 minutes home as all down hill. Better if you get snow as they can easily walk and not have buses not turn up.

It isn't just about year 7 either. Year 11 they always have booster/revision stuff for GCSEs so usually after school sessions but for exams mine were also in early, including at 7.45am for their longest English paper. They were compulsory sessions. So my children were home in 20 minutes after school, the grammar children were still on a bus travelling home. Mine also had mates they walked up to school with, met up mid-route.

As for friends, both my sons had friends on the other side of the school catchment but instead of meeting up to hang out they all connected over headsets, did homework together, gamed together and just chatted that way too. Better that than 6 grown adult sized 14 year olds crowding round one computer.

We chose the one that pushed the high achievers as well as the low ability students. The other school we moved away from happily admitted they push the children on grades 2 and 3 to get them up to a pass, if your child is a grade 6 or 7 they were left to push themselves. That is why that school is graded good by Ofsted.

Sounds like B is the best option.