Detentions as a punishment

[SweatyLama]

I didn't grow up in the UK, but my children were born here. This year, my DS started secondary school for the first time, and I discovered that they have a system of punishments in place. Is this a common practice in all state schools in Britain? I really don't like this system ( I mean punishments) and find it degrading and outdated.

The lack of funding for mental health in schools shouldn't preclude us from asking for it, should it?

" All in all, It's a sensible thing to insist children are present on the room by the time the lesson starts." You are right. what does detentions have to do with it?

This is perhaps one of the most depressing posts I've ever seen on Mumsnet.

"If you don't like our system, fuck off back to your own country. Don't even think about trying to change it, or advocating for your child (who will statistically probably be a failure due to their ADHD)."

Cool.

Because a common reason for detention is lateness to school/lateness to lesson without an acceptable reason?

If there are no adverse consequences to the child because the teacher has to waste time helping them individually with what all the other children were taught together, what is there to stop the child repeatedly doing something you agree is wrong, and which is anti-social because it impacts on everyone else?

The vast majority will make it through high school either never having a detention or extremely rarely, so I think most parents will support it as a deterrent. It’s just basic childhood learning OP - stick to the rules or there are consequences. Are you suggesting other consequences would be better, or none (which would lead schools to be totally lawless)?

No, I don't mean that. I don’t have much experience with secondary school teachers, but I hope everything is fine there. I just don’t agree with the punishment system in schools. However, I do understand that if you simply remove punishments without changing the overall approach to teaching, things could fall apart. Right now, it seems like children attend lessons and do their homework out of fear of being punished, and I don’t think that’s right.

They could lose their place at the school and then you f*** aren't you

The problem with that is that you can’t treat one child differently from another. The naughtier students will notice the discrepancies immediately

Yes the school system should change.

The first two things that should change are to restore funding per pupil in real terms back to where it was about 12 years ago and reinstate Building Schools for the Future.

Use the fall in the birth rate to have smaller secondary schools (a lot of the problems stem from cramming too many kids into classrooms and corridors built for smaller numbers). Reinstate Sure Start. Reinstate school nurses so each secondary has one. Train a lot more educational psychologists.

Train teachers better. I've been a teacher for 13 years now and all the really useful learning I've done has been on my own initiative and at my own expense. I can count on the fingers of one hand the useful days I've spent in INSET.

I won't comment on the curriculum as there is a review of it going on.

But! This would take real political will and nothing much would change in the 5-7 years any individual child spends at secondary. It would have to be done as a future investment.

So I agree the OP's choices are lump it (although she could become a governor); investigate the other schools locally; pay, or home educate.

Well, isn't that the general foundation of society.... Human beings.... We all stop ourselves stealing/being violent etc for fear of punishment..? For fear of our peers seeking retribution or consequence.

If society allowed any behaviours without recrimination... The world would be savage. It's human nature/survival instinct... You don't pick a fight with the bigger/stronger/more powerful... Because they'd hurt or kill you.

It’s not entirely true. Most teens know that lessons are important, at least in terms of passing exams and giving themselves options in life. The thing is though that kids are rubbish at planning ahead like that, so even if in some abstract way they know school is important, the threat a detention can help a lot with the motivation to do the homework every week in year 10 or to turn up to maths class on time even though they don’t like the subject in year 11.
That need for ongoing motivation may not have been necessary in your school environment if the kids already considered themselves lucky not to be in the 25% without the option or support to be at school with them.

I assure you, these scientists understand why they have to describe their work. Moreover, children who did not want to do it when the tasks were easy, start doing it themselves when the tasks become more difficult. Without any pressure.

When you were a teenager, do you think you needed someone there to discipline you? I didn't.

of course, and that’s why they should be disciplined.

all consequences come down to loss of reward, loss of money. students earn knowledge in school. and not receiving this knowledge (which is ultimately expressed in marks and so on) will be natural consequences.

It's an illusion that works with motivated children. Motivated children follow rules without the threat of punishment.

In my experience maybe 70 ish percent of a secondary school class are motivated with no external incentive or deterrent necessary. Maybe another 25% will follow the rules without argument if the incentives and deterrents clearly showing where the boundaries are. And for maybe 5% it doesn’t work. But that 25% makes an enormous difference in a classroom.
And again, just like with toddlers, punishment is not the point. A relatively immediate consequence to disruptive behavior just marks clearly to the kids where that boundary is.
Your school had punishment too - you said they called pupils’ parents when there was an issue. Some kids would take a lunchtime detention over getting their parents involved any day.

Not often - because they’ve learned in school that breaking the rules lands them in trouble 😂
OP, you do sound very naive about what behaviour can be like in school amongst groups of hormonal teens. Stepping into a classroom can be brutal, and it’s not helped when parents tell their kids that they shouldn't get punished if they misbehave.

Yes, they do. But it can be almost impossible to remain motivated when youve got some argumentative kids disrupting their lessons.

I agree that watching Educating Essex might make you understand what teachers are dealing with OP. I remember when my dd started at the local comp I was quite shocked at how strict some things were compared to my own grammar school. I realised after a while that the strictness was aimed at kids who were far worse behaved and would take full advantage if given an inch.
They can't say "X is badly behaved so if she doesn't do homework we'll do this but Y sitting next to her is well meaning, so if she doesn't bring in homework we'll let her off." It would be an unfair system.

But that knowledge won't make that disengaged 16 yo from disrupting your class or being aggressive...

Nice non answer there.

What would YOU do when faced with a 6ft 16 yo barging into the room, telling you to fuck off when you ask him to sit down quietly, and then he throws a chair across the room and it hits another child.

Have zero consequences for his actions?

Please tell us the magic solutions you have.

Thanks for the detailed description. This is interesting. I am from a poor area, and there were drug addicts in my school, although the problem was not as acute as it is now. I studied in the USSR. I am not happy with my school. And the British system suits me better than the one I studied in. And in the current conditions, I would prefer to teach my son at home if I stayed to live in my country. But here, in general, everything suits me. However, the punishment system surprised me a lot. I understand that for you this is the norm, and you do not see it as I do. A person who did not have punishments at school.

I've lived here long enough to appreciate the punctuality of the British and their queues at the GP, dentist, teacher, waitress and much more )))