Detentions as a punishment

[SweatyLama]

I didn't grow up in the UK, but my children were born here. This year, my DS started secondary school for the first time, and I discovered that they have a system of punishments in place. Is this a common practice in all state schools in Britain? I really don't like this system ( I mean punishments) and find it degrading and outdated.

Absolutely this. In a country where you’re locked up for years just for criticising the government, I’d imagine people toe the line far more readily.

That's exactly what I'm afraid of. We fled from a country where people are treated like slaves. And here, you're deprived of your freedom in school for forgetting a ruler

Yes, you’re right, our schools are usually smaller, with about 120-150 students per year group.

I think the culture was different back then: a person was seen as educated and a law-abiding citizen. We didn’t have situations like the one described above, where girls are late to lessons because they were doing their makeup in the toilets. The only time anyone was late was for the first lesson, and that was only because they hadn’t managed their time or overslept. No one was late for any of the other lessons. A student presented themselves as a respectable person who didn’t forget things and wasn’t late. So, if it did happen, everyone knew it wasn’t good and made an effort to make sure it didn’t happen again.
Something strange is happening right now, and I can’t quite understand it. On the one hand, children have been given more rights. Teachers aren’t allowed to insult or humiliate students. But on the other hand, they’re passing a law that protects teachers from insults and violence. I don’t understand what’s happening in schools that teachers need protection from attacks by parents and students.

School didn’t often call parents. Communication was mainly through the school diaries. The teacher wrote a remark in the diary (my son has the same system now, and I also have to sign it to show I’ve seen it). Only serious misbehaviour would lead to parents being called into school. For example, I had conflicts and bad behaviour in home "technology", PE, and "music" lessons. I don’t remember what the conflicts were about ( I just was a teen with hormones), but the teachers didn’t get involved. They just gave a bad mark, and I could act out as much as I liked. I didn’t care about my marks in those subjects, but since the teachers’ reaction to conflict was minimal, there was no point in continuing. My parents were never invited to the school.

Don't worry. My son left about 20 pens at school in just 4 weeks, so the teachers should have plenty of spares. I’ve provided
the school well-stocked!

I could put 20 out this morning and they'd be gone by the end of the day.(we don't have any punishments for not bringing equipment, and it shows!!)

If the reason a student doesn't have a pen is because he doesn't want to learn, then it's obvious why 20 pens won't be enough.

I thought reminding them of the rules would be enough.

OP, it's a different culture.

I hope that you have picked up that it's also a different culture to the one most of us Brits grew up in.

Schools were a lot more free and easy in the UK in the 80s and 90s in terms of what was taught, behaviour management, what teachers and kids could do.

Things are different now, including the curriculum; school (or at least, education) is compulsory for longer; core subjects (English, Maths, Science) have more challenging content; vocational and creative subjects have been downgraded. A lot more students are doing A-levels and going on to university; uniform codes are stricter. Buildings are overcrowded.

There is arguably more to rebel against!

Unfortunately British youth culture (especially in deprived areas) is often one of not wanting to learn. Where I live, the kids that do want to learn have to pretend they don’t or they’re called a ‘sweat’ and ostracised by the rough kids. You may as well just close the schools if your solution is to just give up on these children, many of whom have little parental guidance. That isn’t their fault.

It would be reverting to the old days where there was no social mobility. The poor were uneducated and kept in their place.

Years ago, teachers could hit you for a misdemeanour. That’s against the law now, thank goodness but it also means that schools have to find another deterrent for bad behaviour. The past few decades have shown that a ‘zero tolerance’ approach works. In my school we’d get a detention for not walking single-file in the corridor in silence, or not standing when a teacher entered the room. Nobody would have dared to be cheeky to a teacher when the sanctions were so strict. This meant no disruptions in class and everyone was able to learn which was best for everyone.

OP I was commenting on the fact that you thought 20 pens would mean a teacher was well stocked for pens.

@Phineyj
Yes, i'm agree. The culture 30 years ago is completely different from what it is now. And in Russia, they have the same issues with children as we see here. In their schools, academic motivation was driven by marks, but behaviour and social norms were builded by society and family. Common notices were usually enough. But when punishment and pressure are introduced, teenagers often feel the urge to rebel. That's where the conflict begins. Adults clash with teenagers, and teenagers push back against adults. The struggle only ends when one side moves to the other. Without anyone to fight, there is no fight. Adults want to give children an education, and that’s right. But with the desire to give, there must also give a reason for children to want to take it.

This is not serious. If a student needs a pen to study, the teacher can give him a pen and take it away at the end of the lesson. But if the teenager protests, he will break all 20 pens. This teenager does not need a pen, but a reason why he would like to study. Many teachers see only one reason, it is to fear sanctions. But this is not effective. 1. Because this is not a serious punishment (it is easier to sit for half an hour than to study the subject) 2. You can avoid punishment by pretending. This is not what adults would like.

I don't agree, and the reason I don't is that the vast majority of parents and.teachers (even senior management) have very little influence over the broad social, cultural and economic factors that are driving these behaviours and responses.

I mean, I might prefer talking to students to giving sanctions but can I? No! I need to work within my employer's system.

My DD would do better at school with cooking class every day rather than once a week. Is that likely to be an option? No!

I don't mean to suggest I wouldn't push back (and have) if I see a real ethical conflict, but you do have to do your research and pick your battles.

I completely agree with the original poster and share concerns about how strict and punitive detention policies are in this country. It feels unnecessarily harsh and rigid, especially for young children who are still developing emotionally. I worry that these approaches create anxiety and fear, contributing to the growing mental health crisis among teens. The increasing number of school refusers is alarming, and I believe the stressful school environment plays a major role in this issue. In many cases, it doesn’t feel like a safe or nurturing space for children.

I was educated in a different country, (which is consistently rated as one of the happiest in the world!) If a student was late to class, they would simply slip in and get on with the lesson. If it became a pattern, they would be called in for a conversation to understand the reasons and work together on a plan to address it. In addition, we received a separate grade for behavior, which included things like punctuality and attitude. If there were ongoing issues, it would reflect in this grade and could impact our overall score and future educational opportunities. It was a natural consequence that felt more aligned with the behavior, rather than the immediate punishment of detentions, which seem to instill fear without addressing underlying causes.

There is a vanishingly small number of teachers who entered teaching in order to give out sanctions/detentions/hoard the pen supplies/police the toilet queue!

(There might be one or two in senior management who enjoy their reputation for 'running a tight ship', who knows?)

Yet those of us who actually work in schools are telling you that schools in this country, at this time, need some kind of sanction system.

What's the point of comparing other countries that are more socially cohesive/equal, have more disapprobation for behaviour out of the norm, or higher respect for the teaching profession, don't try to educate the whole cohort, or have more resources? It's comparing apples and bananas and saying that the latter is an overly sweet squishy cylindrical apple!

As the late great Terry Pratchett wrote, "We are here and this is now."

Secondary state schools in England are massive and there can be lots of bad behaviour, disruption in class, etc. It is the way teachers have to control behaviour.

Your school experience was probably similar to mine but I went to a small state girls secondary school. And yes if you failed you resit or repeat the year.

No sure I would have coped with a 1600 to 3000 pupils coed state school if I grew up in England.

We only spent 5 hours at school too, either morning or afternoon

This country also has experience with education systems that don't use punishment. Yes, simply giving up on punishment is not enough. However, from this discussion thread, it’s clear that there is no demand for such schools. Yet, this approach changes societal thinking. In it, bad behaviour and mistakes become subjects of studying their causes and providing help to correct them as stated in one of the school policies " give therapeutic plan"

OP, have you had a chance to be inside your son’s school - at an open day, etc. Did it give you any feel for what British teenagers are actually like? A typical school has around 200 children a year in classes of around 30, asking them nicely to do things and then letting it go doesn’t really work very well in practice. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn’t.

Schools do spend an enormous amount of time and effort working with some children to help them manage their behaviour, when their behaviour is due to trauma, special needs or other problems.

It would be absolutely ridiculous, completely unmanageable and also ineffective for schools to have a therapeutic plan and in-depth conversations with every student who failed to hand in homework or misbehaved in class.

You are quite simply wrong about sanctions not working. Every morning I see students in my form hurriedly completing homework in order not to get a detention. Every day I see students respond to warnings about their behaviour so that they don't get a detention. Yes, of course there are sone students who will not amend their behaviour, but what evidence do you have from schools (in this country) that detentions are not a deterrent?

it works. schools that practice this are judged an “outstanding” school.

Lots of schools are judged outstanding, including some incredibly draconian ones (isn’t the Michaela school outstanding?)

OP we want children to learn. Learning is not always fun. So sometimes there need to be sanctions to persuade children to learn for their own good. Or some of them will just take the piss, frankly.

1. Let's say both systems are effective. What is the reason to choose a system with punishment?
2. When I talk about effectiveness, I mean studying. If a child is late for class to avoid studying, then punishment may bring him back to class, but it will not make him study. If a child does not do the task because he does not want to study, then punishment (provided that the child is afraid of it) will make the child avoid it by copying the work of another student, but not because he will study. For motivated children who want to study, but have poorly planned their time, forgotten, or accidentally made a mistake, punishments cause nervousness. Nervousness interferes with studying. You will agree that it is easier for a child/teen to study in a safe environment than in an environment where he is nervous. You can find more information in the works of Alfie Kohn.

And?
Why do you prefer, out of all the schools are judged outstanding, the school that uses punishments instead of without ones?