Detentions as a punishment

[SweatyLama]

I didn't grow up in the UK, but my children were born here. This year, my DS started secondary school for the first time, and I discovered that they have a system of punishments in place. Is this a common practice in all state schools in Britain? I really don't like this system ( I mean punishments) and find it degrading and outdated.

I'm naive, I also think that until the horse decomposes, it's worth believing that it can wake up.😅

I'm glad to know that. I hope it only gets better with time.
But @Anonym00se correct me:
"GCSE results are a fairly broad representation of whether the children in that particular school are engaged or not".

There aren't enough teachers to even put in front of whole classes. There certainly aren't enough to work separately with all the children who distract others if they are in class.

Well yes, that's why we don't just let kids not come to school or turn up to lessons. We keep them in classes and try our best to teach them!

Of course, people need to learn consequences for their actions.

I am not against this. I am against punishments.

No, it isn't. It's staying by the water after the other horses have gone back down the field to give that horse more time in a quieter, less crowded environment without that dickhead Welsh Cob who keeps on making smartarsed ear twitches or flicking his tail within its line of sight.

What is going to blow your mind is what happens with internal inclusion/suspension/whatever it's called in your particular school. You'll get parents wringing their hands over how traumatic it is for a kid to have to go and work there because it's a terrible punishment - but there are many children who actively seek out a place because they like the environment better than being in class, just as I liked the warm lunchtime detention room far more than the cold, wet playground - they might like not having to sit right next to somebody, there could be better light, it might be warmer, it'll be quieter, they have work to get on with that doesn't require sitting bolt upright and tracking the teacher with their eyes at all times...they just prefer it.

Our internal inclusion room is a mini library with some desks, copies of subject textbooks and computers. It's got quite a nice vibe really.

Just before covid, DD was doing some work in the 'inclusion room' by choice as it was quiet and calm, (and the leader had her dog there).

Yes, but as we have explained, having a nice chat with a badly-behaved student, or having a nice chat with the parents of a child who's skipping school generally does not work. So you agree we should get children to come to school, and that they should attend lessons, and that they should behave themselves in class? How would you achieve this if having a chat with them doesn't work?

Yesterday, I asked on a parenting forum in Russia whether it’s true that our schools don’t punish children for being late, skipping lessons, forgetting their homework, or leaving behind their pen/pencils or PE kit, or even for bad behaviour. Or perhaps I had forgotten?

They replied that in some places children are punished (mostly with bad marks for not doing homework), but that’s it. All other issues are resolved like in your schools, but without sanctions. That is, in your system, detentions come first, and if behaviour doesn’t improve, parents are called in as a last resort. In our system, instead of detentions, teachers remind the rules to the children, and if their behaviour doesn’t improve, parents are also called in as a last resort. In the end, reminders of the rules work just as well as your detentions. I understand it may be hard for you to accept this because you grew up in that system, and it turns out you were punished unnecessarily. But usually, students make an effort to follow the rules without needing to be punished.

Forgotten stationery isn’t seen as a fault at all.
Our system has many weaknesses, but I’d rather not go into that. It’s not related to lateness, bad behaviour, or anything of that sort. It concerns homework. Homework is indeed linked to punishment in the form of poor marks, and it’s the marking system itself that is a major flaw in our system.

Fwiw I agree with you somewhat OP. Going to school in the 90s, the usual response of the teachers to lateness was eye-rolling and "please try to be on time in future". Occasionally a teacher would publicly interrogate you as to the reasons for your lateness, which was a bit embarrassing. Or they might keep you in if the lesson was before break or lunch. And there was general irateness against the PE staff for not giving children enough time to shower, change and get to their next lesson on time, but it tended not to be directed at us kids. I remember one Maths teacher phoning the PE department (internal phones) and giving the head of PE a dressing-down in front of our class which we found terribly funny, although looking back it was somewhat unprofessional. Detentions were for the "naughty" kids not the chronically disorganised.

But it was a different time and (I suspect) a different sort of school. Secondary schools have got a lot bigger (mine only had around 500 students) and there is an increasing disconnect I think between many schools and the families they serve. Communities are more diverse and disparate, and the social and community ties which kept many children in line without the need for harsh punishment have been weakened. I remember walking through our town with my aunt (who was deputy head of the other secondary school in our town), and we could hardly go 100 yards or so without one or other of her former pupils coming up to say hi and tell her what they'd been doing and to give news of their family. I think the world has changed a lot since then.

Well that's interesting, OP. Thanks for sharing that.

I really don't think parents here would thank us for lots of phone calls. It can be hard to get some of them on the phone even for quite serious stuff.

Actually it does sound a bit like my own school days of the 1990s (in England). Things were different then. Parents always sided with teachers. Even when they knew they were in the wrong!

I wonder also if Russian schools have more admin staff? We are operating with a very minimal number of those. I honestly don't know when I would make loads of phone calls. Parents can read everything written on our house points/sanction database though, should they wish.

I wonder too if there is a difference in parenting. My observation of parents from more Eastern European countries is that they are perhaps stricter and more direct with their children than some of the more permissive parenting here. I am not sure that all parents if informed of their child's actions would take any action in the UK. There is very much a culture of what happens in school is dealt with in school. What would Russian parents do /say to their children if the school contacts them? That perhaps is punishment enough.

Punctuality is especially emphasised, but then that is also important in British society, so whereas some cultures might see a time as a guideline it might be quite rude to be late (depending on the context) in the UK. I imagine that in Russia there are different things which are emphasised which would just be passed over in the UK.

Although some schools are zero tolerance, in most schools the child and parents will have some warnings. Certainly the schools my children have been to have systems of reporting more minor infringements so for example a forgotten ruler would result in a point, five points in a half term would be a detention. The parents and child would know that the child had say three points and they can have discussions with the child about ensuring they do not get any more before the points are reset at half term. Only more extreme behaviour might result in an immediate detention. None of my children have got to the stage of having a detention and many of their friends haven't either so they are not a foregone conclusion in schools in the UK.

In the end, reminders of the rules work just as well as your detentions

Oh, because Johnny doesn't have a pen because he genuinely forgot his pen and not because Johnny doesn't give a shit about bringing a pen and in fact not having a pen is a perfect excuse not to do any work.

In our system, instead of detentions, teachers remind the rules to the children, and if their behaviour doesn’t improve, parents are also called in as a last resort. In the end, reminders of the rules work just as well as your detentions.

How do you know they work as well? Also, what on earth makes you think we don't very regularly remind students of the rules?! Of course we do!

Sorry, OP, but unless you have taught in a school, you're not really in a position to say what works, what doesn't work, or how discipline systems really function.

Hmm of course they are sensitive 🙄. Rules are rules. Being late typically causes someone else inconvenience. Why should a teacher have delay starting a lesson or repeat something because someone is late? The neurodiversity is a red herring as time management is a life skill -l say that as someone who is neurodivergent.

I think that kids from 14 onwards who clearly don't want to be in school should be able to leave. That would cut down in the disruption, let them go & get a dead end job if that is what they want, they can always go to college later on to get qualifications when they have matured. There are so many kids who just don't want to be there & probably a lot of them will leave with low qualifications if they get any at all.

CrispieCake

Fwiw I agree with you somewhat OP. Going to school in the 90s, the usual response of the teachers to lateness was eye-rolling and "please try to be on time in future".

One of the major differences between now and then is that in the days of yore is that teachers where not being held accountable for the results of the pupils, in that it was accepted that if a child messed around, turned up late or just couldn't be arsed, the final result was because of that and not the teacher's fault.

At my school we used to have a couple of teachers who would issue morning runs instead of detention, school started at 8:45 you had to come in at 8 and run around the outside of the school building in pe kit for thirty minutes while everyone else was arriving, the teachers shared an office on an upper floor where they had dual aspect windows and could monitor lap time to make sure you weren't stopping. There was the added humiliation of students and parents arriving and seeing who was on morning run and knowing those involved had misbehaved/done something wrong.
I never had one in the years I was there, I behaved myself, was polite and did my work. It wasn't difficult to avoid.

ETA this was the nineties, bog standard comp in a rough area

perhaps Russia doesn't have the social problems we have in the UK. maybe the young ppl there behave themselves better generally?

I kind of agree with this, except I would offer those who want to leave at 14 an apprenticeship somewhere. So they're working and gaining skills. I wouldn't be forcing them to sit maths GCSE if they're only going to fail it.

I would make it an option/easy for anyone to come back and do GCSEs when they're older if they change their mind.

I kind of agree with you, these kids exist. Also, other kids exist who live in abusive homes with addicted parents. School is their sanctuary and even making it in for them is a miracle.

Indeed. However some people would insist that all kids who turn up without a pen are of the ‘miracle they made it to school’ type where in my experience there are far more of the lazy-arse ‘you’ll give me a pen because you want me to actually do the work’ type.