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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Detentions as a punishment

507 replies

SweatyLama · 04/10/2024 20:40

I didn't grow up in the UK, but my children were born here. This year, my DS started secondary school for the first time, and I discovered that they have a system of punishments in place. Is this a common practice in all state schools in Britain? I really don't like this system ( I mean punishments) and find it degrading and outdated.

OP posts:
Anonym00se · 05/10/2024 21:24

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:14

In real life we face natural consequences, not punishments from people hired to help us gain knowledge.

So you don’t abide by British laws, or the Highway Code, or workplace rules? How very anarchistic!

BlackOrangeFrog · 05/10/2024 21:31

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:14

In real life we face natural consequences, not punishments from people hired to help us gain knowledge.

Right... Okay, so the natural consequence of stealing a million pounds is...? The guilt?

BlackOrangeFrog · 05/10/2024 21:38

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 19:55

@clary thanks for your massage. I want to comment
I am still not clear how you would deal with the student described by a PP who is as tall as a fully grown man, swearing and throwing the furniture. Do they not deserve any kind of sanction?
I'm certain that no one deserves punishment, especially children, even if they don’t behave as expected. Every bad behaviour has its reasons, and in an ideal world, there should be an adult who helps uncover those reasons and offers support. There are no inherently bad people – something or someone made them act in a way that causes harm to others. In rare cases, this may be innate, and such individuals should be isolated for society’s safety, but not punished, as they aren’t to blame for being born that way. This isn’t just a suggestion, but something a humane society should aspire to.

How can this be applied in schools? I don’t think it’s something that can be achieved overnight. Children with oppositional behaviour need support from specialists – psychologists and psychiatrists – who can also guide teachers on how to work with them. For most teenagers, all they need is to be treated with respect. Punishment isn’t about respect.

As for the teen in question, teachers shouldn’t be left to deal with him, especially if he’s aggressive – that’s dangerous. Special services (perhaps social care) should look into why the child is behaving this way. A teenager shouldn’t pose a risk to other students or teachers, but they should receive help in a specialised school. After all, they’ll soon be an adult and will be living amongst us.

So, her again, you haven't answered the question of how to actually deal with the situation.

Just "it shouldn't happen".... And nobody should ever be punished or have consequences for their behaviour

I'd bet you'd be the first person calling the police if someone was in your house burgling...or was drunk driving and crashed into your car ... Someone took a disliking to your son and harassed him ... Someone online groomed your son ...

It's very easy to sit here, high and mighty and idealistic. But the rest of the planet live here and every culture has peer pressure to behave a certain way.

It's human nature to punish bad behaviour .. you don't pick a fight with the bigger stronger opponent .

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:43

clary · 05/10/2024 18:39

So you don't think there should be any kind of sanction to a student who comes in late to class? This has to be a wind-up. Do you have any idea how disruptive it is when students come in late? I think the answer must be no.

Actually students turn up on time bc they want to learn; but teachers need to have some kind of sanction for the few who are late. Why are you so against this? It's not an issue if a student follows the rules. I assume you are in favour of there being rules @SweatyLama ?

I studied at a school where children were sometimes late. And it did not cause much inconvenience. (We had a rule, if you are late - your problem, teachers were not distracted by pupil was late). I think that we are all people and being late can happen to anyone. If one of the children is late regularly, then you can ask the parents to help their children not to be late. It works with usual kids who wants to study. So yes, this has to be a wind-up.
Why are you so against this?
because i wouldn't want to be punished. it's humiliating. A person who was late has already punished himself by the fact that he was not with everyone and missed something important.

OP posts:
SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:45

BlackOrangeFrog · 05/10/2024 21:31

Right... Okay, so the natural consequence of stealing a million pounds is...? The guilt?

how does this relate to the topic of conversation?

OP posts:
SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:47

Anonym00se · 05/10/2024 21:24

So you don’t abide by British laws, or the Highway Code, or workplace rules? How very anarchistic!

what british law is it illegal to be late? or to not do homework? or to have an untied tie, the wrong shoes, to forget a ruler? i don't remember any such laws.

OP posts:
SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:59

BlackOrangeFrog · 05/10/2024 21:38

So, her again, you haven't answered the question of how to actually deal with the situation.

Just "it shouldn't happen".... And nobody should ever be punished or have consequences for their behaviour

I'd bet you'd be the first person calling the police if someone was in your house burgling...or was drunk driving and crashed into your car ... Someone took a disliking to your son and harassed him ... Someone online groomed your son ...

It's very easy to sit here, high and mighty and idealistic. But the rest of the planet live here and every culture has peer pressure to behave a certain way.

It's human nature to punish bad behaviour .. you don't pick a fight with the bigger stronger opponent .

I suggest going back to school. I have no desire to develop the topic in this thread. In short: in order for society to be healthy, it must first be educated correctly. So that the motivation not to commit crimes is internal, and not external, based on fear of punishment. This is not yet in our society.

OP posts:
Babbadoobabbadock · 05/10/2024 22:02

Do you don't actually have any solutions or suggestions ?

Marblesbackagain · 05/10/2024 22:02

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:59

I suggest going back to school. I have no desire to develop the topic in this thread. In short: in order for society to be healthy, it must first be educated correctly. So that the motivation not to commit crimes is internal, and not external, based on fear of punishment. This is not yet in our society.

Ah bless you , I have no idea how you navigate life with that attitude but hey ho it takes all sorts but please support your son to follow the rules because the school isn't going to change.

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 22:22

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 05/10/2024 18:43

But your son does. You said yourself that motivated children follow rules without the threat of punishment, however even with the risk of punishment he is struggling. He is different to you and in your home town he might have been at risk of dropping out.

He will find it harder if he is getting mixed messages from you. I have taken the approach that what happens at school is their domain and we need to respect their rules while they are there.

But your son does
Why? I don't think so.
however even with the risk of punishment he is struggling
Sorry? I didn't write this. It's not true.
He will find it harder if he is getting mixed messages from you.
What messages? I’ve only given one. Do as your teacher asks, don’t argue with them. I will protect you if needed, and I’ll deal with them if necessary. I did that when a teacher gave an unfair warning and later apologised for it. Not all teachers are always right

OP posts:
clary · 05/10/2024 22:45

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 19:55

@clary thanks for your massage. I want to comment
I am still not clear how you would deal with the student described by a PP who is as tall as a fully grown man, swearing and throwing the furniture. Do they not deserve any kind of sanction?
I'm certain that no one deserves punishment, especially children, even if they don’t behave as expected. Every bad behaviour has its reasons, and in an ideal world, there should be an adult who helps uncover those reasons and offers support. There are no inherently bad people – something or someone made them act in a way that causes harm to others. In rare cases, this may be innate, and such individuals should be isolated for society’s safety, but not punished, as they aren’t to blame for being born that way. This isn’t just a suggestion, but something a humane society should aspire to.

How can this be applied in schools? I don’t think it’s something that can be achieved overnight. Children with oppositional behaviour need support from specialists – psychologists and psychiatrists – who can also guide teachers on how to work with them. For most teenagers, all they need is to be treated with respect. Punishment isn’t about respect.

As for the teen in question, teachers shouldn’t be left to deal with him, especially if he’s aggressive – that’s dangerous. Special services (perhaps social care) should look into why the child is behaving this way. A teenager shouldn’t pose a risk to other students or teachers, but they should receive help in a specialised school. After all, they’ll soon be an adult and will be living amongst us.

Unfortunately psychologists, psychiatrists and social care are not available on a regular basis to help out with poor behaviour in schools.

No one, least of all me, is saying that every child or even most children behave this badly; but sadly it is more common in many schools than you seem to think @SweatyLama. Even if the majority of children in schools want to learn and behave well (and they do) very poor behaviour from (say) 3% of the students in a school of 1200 is 36 major issues a day to deal with. I’m not sure how many social care staff you think there are in a typical school (clue: none). And there are not spaces in special schools for the disruptive students – who don’t need to be there anyway. The idea of sanctions is to support students to behave better and access learning.

RamblingEclectic · 05/10/2024 23:10

My older daughter was very anxious about detentions, even though she never had one. She did feel that it would be humiliating for others to know she had broken the rules (she is my Lawful Good child, who is now a TA apprentice who has overseen primary school children who are held back from break and has chilled out quite a bit by her own admission).

My younger daughter doesn't care, and has had a few. She just uses them to do homework before going on to another afterschool club or home. I was like that - it wasn't a loss of freedom, for me it was freedom in the quiet. It was never humiliating - why would I be humiliated to sit quietly in a room like that wasn't what I did most of the time? I get it if a teacher or the school was to publicly shame them, which I've seen but is not often the case.

*But if you've ever attended adult classes, can you recall being punished for being late? Or for not completing your homework?

Yes, I attended a community college in the US where not attending prevents people from participating in sports and other clubs on campus, and can result in more severe consequences including having a low attendance marked on the transcript that follows after leaving. Any job that asks for my pre-UK qualifications can see them.

In the UK my son, who is 20, attends adult education where he is not allowed to be in his room from 9am to 4pm during the week unless he is ill and has followed reporting procedures which involves contacting his course tutor and training provider, and he must ask permission to be absent for any other reason. There are punishments for being late or absent without permission and after the 6th absences without permission, he would get kicked out, much as other gross misconduct like failing one of the random drug test.

He is technically free to leave as he was at secondary, but unlike then, it would cost him - he has a sponsored place and a contract that if he leaves or gets kicked out, he has to pay thousands back - a not uncommon feature if you can get a company to pay for your adult learning. This is the child who chose to be home educated until he was 15 - yes, some kids do get that choice, all my kids when they chose to enter secondary were shown and discussed the behaviour policy, uniform, all the rest. I'm not a parent who argues with a school about the rules we could read and ask them about beforehand. I find that respectful both to the school and my kids. I have chats with my younger daughter regularly - you can make the choice if you're willing to deal with the consequence.

Children in happy families do not sit in the lobby.

Oh dear, that's an interesting assumption, especially when it comes to kids who fall in line with their friends. I find Year 7s particularly vulnerable to this as they adjust.

I'm a governor at a school that has a lot of 'corridor wanderers' (though when I was there in the summer, there were a few wanderers Naruto racing down the hall). Schools are being really pressed to deal with attendance, including internal truancy, it's a safeguarding issue so now they all get moved into a room to study, which can be viewed as a school time detention or a natural consequence to keep them supervised and the classes undisturbed. Some of the kids are from happy families, they may also hate a particular teacher or find the quiet room studying on their own more appealing than a busy class or prefer being with their friends even when they can't talk. Near everything about schools is out of a child's hands and restrict freedom if we want to view it that way - detentions are the least of it - so yes, some push back sometimes because they feel safe enough to do so.

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:12

Phineyj · 05/10/2024 16:20

Yes the school system should change.

The first two things that should change are to restore funding per pupil in real terms back to where it was about 12 years ago and reinstate Building Schools for the Future.

Use the fall in the birth rate to have smaller secondary schools (a lot of the problems stem from cramming too many kids into classrooms and corridors built for smaller numbers). Reinstate Sure Start. Reinstate school nurses so each secondary has one. Train a lot more educational psychologists.

Train teachers better. I've been a teacher for 13 years now and all the really useful learning I've done has been on my own initiative and at my own expense. I can count on the fingers of one hand the useful days I've spent in INSET.

I won't comment on the curriculum as there is a review of it going on.

But! This would take real political will and nothing much would change in the 5-7 years any individual child spends at secondary. It would have to be done as a future investment.

So I agree the OP's choices are lump it (although she could become a governor); investigate the other schools locally; pay, or home educate.

Thank you for your support. It’s very sad that many parents don’t see the problems in education, which means there’s no one to push for change.

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 05/10/2024 23:14

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:12

Thank you for your support. It’s very sad that many parents don’t see the problems in education, which means there’s no one to push for change.

The thing is SweatyLama that although you say you want change you don't seem to know what it is or how you want to bring it about.

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:22

clary · 05/10/2024 22:45

Unfortunately psychologists, psychiatrists and social care are not available on a regular basis to help out with poor behaviour in schools.

No one, least of all me, is saying that every child or even most children behave this badly; but sadly it is more common in many schools than you seem to think @SweatyLama. Even if the majority of children in schools want to learn and behave well (and they do) very poor behaviour from (say) 3% of the students in a school of 1200 is 36 major issues a day to deal with. I’m not sure how many social care staff you think there are in a typical school (clue: none). And there are not spaces in special schools for the disruptive students – who don’t need to be there anyway. The idea of sanctions is to support students to behave better and access learning.

I know that schools don’t have the necessary resources. Everyone understands that detentions don’t work, but they pretend they do, which is why they continue to exist in schools.

OP posts:
SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:24

FrippEnos · 05/10/2024 23:14

The thing is SweatyLama that although you say you want change you don't seem to know what it is or how you want to bring it about.

I know and I have written it here, but you don't able to understand.

OP posts:
SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:28

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 13:39

Then perhaps they will put pressure on their child to not piss about?
Schools can only issue detentions. Parents can confiscate x-boxes, change the WiFi password, ground them and a whole host of other stuff that the kid cares about.

I don’t know how to teach children, but I do know how to raise them without using manipulation or punishment. However, it seems you don’t have that knowledge

OP posts:
CaptainOhMyCaptain · 05/10/2024 23:32

I suspect @noblegiraffe has done far more for the good of children over many many years than you have any idea of, OP. How flipping dare you?

Sanguinello · 05/10/2024 23:37

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:28

I don’t know how to teach children, but I do know how to raise them without using manipulation or punishment. However, it seems you don’t have that knowledge

You really can't see that building a relationship with your own children is any different from managing thousands of teenagers in a building? Some of whom have been brought up very differently from your ds?

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 23:38

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:28

I don’t know how to teach children, but I do know how to raise them without using manipulation or punishment. However, it seems you don’t have that knowledge

Teaching and raising kids are two very different things.

Sanguinello · 05/10/2024 23:40

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 23:22

I know that schools don’t have the necessary resources. Everyone understands that detentions don’t work, but they pretend they do, which is why they continue to exist in schools.

A teacher earlier in the thread said that the data showed that introducing lunchtime detentions for lateness reduced lateness at her school.

NPET · 05/10/2024 23:56

SweatyLama · 05/10/2024 21:14

In real life we face natural consequences, not punishments from people hired to help us gain knowledge.

Yes we're gaining knowledge about the world, including the fact that if you do something wrong you should be punished for it.
Just imagine if schools weren't allowed to punish pupils. They may as well give up operating completely.
And in real life we do face punishments. What's jail or a fine? If kids didn't get punished they'd never know what real life is like.

I think you'll find in private schools punishment is more severe! Because the parents who are prepared to pay extra for education don't want their children to be treated weakly.

SweatyLama · 06/10/2024 00:02

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2024 23:38

Teaching and raising kids are two very different things.

Are you suggesting that parents should punish their children?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 06/10/2024 00:04

SweatyLama · 06/10/2024 00:02

Are you suggesting that parents should punish their children?

I’m suggesting that raising a couple of your own kids and managing over a thousand of other people’s kids are very different kettles of fish.

Growlybear83 · 06/10/2024 01:08

I've worked in education for 35 years, and in all that time, I don't think I've ever come across a parent as completely deluded and lacking I understanding of young people in this country. This whole thread is totally bonkers.