Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

[Baldrick23]

I don't mean this too horribly but when I hear that Jonny is a brilliant musician and has grade 7 aged 14 and might go to music school I die a bit inside.

So Im shaped by personal experience here. I did all the grades on the cello by 12 and was a decent cellist and a music scholar. But what parents need to understand is a couple of things. Unless you have grade eight at about 8 (or very soon after starting if later) then you aren't going to be a concert soloist. Even if you do you probably aren't going to be a concert soloist. I wouldn't even have probably made it to be a decent cellist in an orchestra earning 30k for a tricky life touring and barely able to afford anything. So everyone should remenber music is just for fun. None of the kids are going to make it. Just find out how talented you need to be "just" to be a music teacher at a school.

I cant say this out loud at the school gate so I'm saying it here!

Oh and if they love sport get them private 1 to 1 coaching even if they arent the next messi. Just as worthwhile. Forcing talentless musicians to scrape their way humourlessly to grade 2 is awful for everyone involved

Sure enough, but there is so much education throughout life that does not lead to a profession. Is that the point of lessons?

All three of our children have enjoyed music lessons.
One got a scholarship to a private school based on singing and music - and learned quite a lot.
He has a student job 10 hours a week as a musician despite studying a science subject at university. Serves him well.

No lessons are a waste of time if the student engages and makes progress.

Ok there is some truth to the OP. Disclaimer first: my nearly teenage son is past Grade 8 on 3 instruments and sings. He also goes to a specialist music school in the US on weekends. He was grade 8 on his main two instruments by age 11. He practices between 1.5-2 hours a day of his own accord. Is he going to be a soloist? Very very very unlikely. (He would love to be but it’s unlikely). In his instrument pretty much every major current soloist had made their solo debut with orchestra by his age and he’s only ever played with his school/county orchestra. He’s very good for his age but around the world there are many many many other kids far more talented.
Could he go on to a music degree and possibly find an orchestra gig? Maybe…
However he loves music, it has taught him discipline and perseverance. It has shown him what consistent hard work can achieve. He also has many musical friends and a rich extracurricular and social life through his music.

Son no 2 is roughly grade 3 on one instrument and grade 2ish on the piano. He isn’t massively musical. Is he skipping into practice daily? Nah. Does it always bring him joy? No. Sometimes but not always. But has he learned at age 8 to stick at something, watch himself get better, yes. For him the grades are a sign of his progress- that he’s playing harder pieces and making them sound good. So there are many valuable lessons to learn from learning an instrument. However, the biggest lesson both my kids have learned is that daily practice (even 15 mins a day) is absolutely crucial if you want to get better. And that sometimes you may not want to do it, but getting on with it is part of the process. Today he and I worked on a couple of lines for 20 mins. It wasn’t perfect and he was getting cross. But I know it will be better tomorrow and better the next day. And that process is a really valuable lesson.

It's so depressing that so many people think hobbies are only worthwhile if you're good at them. My DD did piano for years and never got even to a grade 1 standard but she thought it was fun and it hugely increased her confidence. I'm sad you think this way. Also, just because a child likes a sport doesn't mean a 1:1 coaching session will make them excellent. As with music, you need a certain level of natural talent that no amount of 1:1 sessions will make up for.

Also once again, it's ok to just enjoy things even if you're bad at them.

My son loves music. That's enough for me. There's nothing wrong with doing something simply for enjoyment.

I suppose if this basis, there's a bit much point in us taking our children to ballet classes or football practice either, as most of them are never going to 'make it'. What these activities, like music, do though, is bring joy and adaptable skills, and those can be just as important.

Another vote for the OP being bonkers crazy nonsense. I studied music to degree level and have made a living with my qualifications and skills. Never ever wanted to be a virtuoso or even perform at all. Loads of work exists in the creative industries that doesn’t involve standing on a stage.

To a degree I can see where you are coming from. My parents must have paid thousands and thousands of pounds for weekly music lessons for me and my siblings over many years. I learnt flute and piano to a reasonable standard and literally haven’t played either in years. The same goes for my siblings with their instruments, even my brother who was particularly talented and had a music scholarship at uni although I suspect his is more situational in that he doesn’t have space in his small flat but will return to it when it’s practical to do so.
None of the adults I know who played orchestral instruments when young ever play them now although some who learnt the piano still play that occasionally.

Learning an instrument does have many benefits though as long as you are realistic that they will likely just play for enjoyment.

I think you unified a whole forum because you touched a nerve. You do from time to time see kids that are being forced to take music as a naice middle-class accomplishment who are clearly totally meh about it, and it kills you to watch all love for music being drained out of a kid who is clearly living out their parents’ dream.

But I don’t think that’s so very common a case. I also think a kid doesn’t have to love music for it to be an interesting skill they’ll be grateful for in later life. They might be meh about the piano as a kid, but they might be happy to have that skill in twenty years when they can pick out a tune on the piano at the pub.

I had almost the opposite upbringing of what you describe OP. I always wanted to learn how to play the piano.

We had one at home and I really wanted to learn. I could pick out a few tunes by ear with one hand. My mum actually discouraged me, told me there was no point in me having lessons. She said I'd give up and that playing with 2 hands is really hard. She taught herself and told me that if I really wanted to learn, I'd teach myself.

For years it was an unfulfilled ambition. I really envied anyone who could play.

Years later, age 41, I decided to have piano lessons. I knew a place that taught adults.

Well, my piano teacher tells me what a pleasure I am to teach and that I'm musical. I had no problems at all playing with with 2 hands and practiced so much I picked it up quickly. I actually passed my grade 3 (with distinction) last month, 18 months after I started my lessons.

To this day, I'm so cross with my mum because she totally put me off playing. The amount of pleasure I get from practising is unbelievable. Just think, how many more years of pleasure I'd have had if my mum hadn't snuffed out my dream.

So, OP, with all due respect, you're talking a lot of boll-rap.

Dh learnt two instruments to grades 8 and 5 growing up. He still plays one in a group twice weekly, and the other about 3-4 times a year when needed.

Dd2 played to grade 8. She's at uni and playing in her uni band in a new instrument she took up at uni (very similar to first, but that was the instrument needed more) and they do tours and she has a lot of fun. When she comes home the people she keeps up with are from her youth orchestra, not school.

It's not a waste of time for everyone, just because you don't use it.

Do you think the only point in doing something is to be brilliant and make a career of it? What a shame.

My husband began piano at 14 & voice at 16. He’s made a living from music since his mid 20s. A portfolio career a mixture of teaching, performing, conductin, accompanying etc etc.

my son began piano at 13. He’s not graduated yet but today he’s on a train down to London earning £50 an hour as an accompanist and last month he was working on a Major UK tour of a musical.

for both of them music is what makes life worth it for them.

Firstly, several of the professional musicians I have known hadn't even started their instruments by 8 years old.

Secondly, if you think the main aim of musical training for children is to produce a career musician, you have missed the point.

I don’t run because so think I’m going to win the next Olympics. I don’t play tennis thinking I’ve got a shot at Wimbledon next year. I definitely don’t make DS practice his cello thinking he’ll ever be a professional musician (not least because he wants to be a marine biologist).

Not everything has to be training for a future career. You can do things because you enjoy them.

Last year, I took semi-retirement after a nearly forty year career teaching piano, violin and viola and accompanying. I have thoroughly enjoyed it and have met many interesting children and adults along the way. Two particularly memorable pupils are at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of ability, but both are enriched by their music. The first is a sixteen year old boy l first taught when he was seven. His talent for the piano was phenomenal and very obvious from the beginning and last year he was accepted into the most prestigious conservatoire in the country as a junior scholar on a Saturday. Since then, he has continued to make amazing progress. He is also a very talented composer and his work has been recognised by the conservatoire. The BBC Young Musician of the Year competition has returned and he is easily the equal of many of the participants. He has been learning viola with me for a year as a second instrument and is going to take grade five in November. He will have a career in music in one form or another.
The other pupil is a young man in his early twenties who has been learning the piano with me since since he was about fifteen. He is autistic and went to a special school. In that time he has reached around grade one in stabdard. He can read music, but his processing speed is slow, so he has to learn every piece by rôte. As may be imagined, this takes a very long time. Just before the summer holidays, we put the final touches into the piece he had been learning for several months. This included pedalling. The end result was a piece of music that was played beautifully; as well as anyone else and better than many. I was moved to tears because of how much it meant and how much more he had to do in order to reach this point.
Finally, to my own playing. As I said upthread, l have recently taken semi-retirement. I am now enjoying making music for myself and have joined a very good orchestra which plays to a semi-professional standard, which I thoroughly enjoy. I have some other personal goals. I have a music degree, which I achieved in 1986, but now I am working towards taking diplomas on each of my instruments. In ascending order: ATCL on viola, LTCL on violin and FTCL on piano. I am really enjoying the challenge and, most importantly, the beautiful music l am learning.

*standard.

I don't even know where to start with this. Most children won't become famous authors or artists so why teach them writing or painting? There are so many benefits to learning a musical instrument, and to doing sports.

Agree with other posters about the many benefits of learning to play an instrument or sing.

My DC enjoy this (one instrument) and have had school/local opportunities and fun, eg group things. The benefits from it as an extracurricular are great for their time and the cost IME.

Your OP seems to be mainly around whether it’s good for v talented DC to spend a lot of their time and energy on music vs other things.

Agree with you that the odds of getting classical music jobs are low - and terms/conditions are often shitty. Similar for other creative industries or high level sports. So perhaps it’s about the DCs’ reasons for doing it (or the family’s if the parents are ‘pushing’ music) and knowledge of the realities etc.

Do you tell all those parents taking their kids to football practice & games the whole of their childhood that they are wasting their time because their child isn't going to play in the premier league?

I think you obviously have a lot of hurt or anger re your own childhood, or this is a reverse?

My DCs are learning instruments and have done a few grades and continue to have lessons, but neither wants a career in music. I do struggle to get them practice sometimes which is frustrating, and I often say they can stop having lessons whenever they want not they are older, but neither of them want to stop.

I'm not sure they will continue to play forever, but I think it has taught them a lot and it will be something they can always come back to when they are older.

Yes but music is also about enjoyment surely? My 9 year old DD has been doing piano lessons for the last 2 years- I have no illusions about her becoming a concert pianist but she enjoys it and being able to play piano is handy. There's also quite a lot of research showing that music helps other learning such as maths
DH plays guitar and was in a band when he was younger- it was a hobby never a potential career, but what's wrong with that?!
Are you saying he should never have learned to play guitar?

Hmm. Interesting point of view. I and two friends were all talented musicians in school. One (me) played through school and university (non-music course), but I knew I wasn’t dedicated enough to make a career out of it. I just did it for the enjoyment. My two friends went on to music college. Only one is still working in music - as a teacher.

Piano can be helpful if you're a primary school teacher too. A friend of mine has done loads of courses and extra work around teaching children with English as a second language.

When she last interviewed for jobs she said they were all more interested in her grade 8 piano and whether she would play in assembly and for the Christmas play than any of the CPD she's done over the years.

I would’ve thought somebody who loves the arts @Baldrick23 would know that not all learning, not all artistic endeavour is about earning money. The exact opposite in fact. I find your op so depressing, I really do.

signed
Grade 6 Oboeist and music Lover.

I was at a reunion a couple of years ago. I asked some people there whether they'd learned music as children and whether they were still doing anything with it. 10 of them (about half) said that they'd learned music to a "decent" level, probably grade 5 or above. Two of those said that they still played for themselves or in a group. The other eight said that they hadn't touched their instruments since they started uni, over 20 years earlier.

DD doesn't love music so I decided to let her spend her time on art lessons and netball clubs, which she does enjoy. I don't think there's anything intrinsically special about music compared with other creative or team activities. Most studies on the subject compare children who do music to children who do nothing, not to children who spend a similar amount of time on other activities.