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Secondary education

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Original poster

Secondary school appeal hearing

105 replies

Beizzyanddizzy · 15/09/2024 21:40

Hi everyone,
I have an appeal hearing in Friday.

The school are arguing that they are oversubscribed so the usual arguments.

How can I prove that the school being oversubscribed has not impacted the quality of education. Their gcse results are above average.

Also they have provided me with only this year's PAN. Shall I ask for the last 5 years?

Apparently the suitability survey shows that the corridors are overcrowded. Can I request this?

What other arguments can I put forward for the school being oversubscribed

My sons suffers from anxiety and this school as a very good welfare department compared to the school he is currently attending. Is this a strong argument. They also have a better curriculum. I currently drive him tk school as he is anxious about taking public transport. This means I'm picking up my daughter 30 minutes early from nursery so I'm not late for him..the school I want is a 20 min walk.

Any advice appreciated as I'm desperate for him to get into this school.

OP posts:
mitogoshigg · 18/09/2024 13:03

You need a specialist to state that particular school is the best in the region. In my experience most schools do have programmes in place for anxiety, all of the schools my DDs attended have (moved a lot). Specifics are so important

Wasteof · 18/09/2024 13:05

@Beizzyanddizzy the admissions page for the school has the 2025 policy on it, which shows their PAN is increasing from 240 this year to 270 in 2025. So if the new building is open, and you know they have already accepted 257 this year, there's potentially a reasonable argument for them accepting more - up to 270.

JoyousPinkPeer · 18/09/2024 13:31

I successfully appealed for my neice ... oversubscribed/will affect the education of tge other children/and her.

I asked them for the numbers for previous years [you likely need number of high needs children each year too). I asked for evidence of poor performance due to this. They couldn't answer.

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 18/09/2024 13:53

Wasteof · 18/09/2024 13:05

@Beizzyanddizzy the admissions page for the school has the 2025 policy on it, which shows their PAN is increasing from 240 this year to 270 in 2025. So if the new building is open, and you know they have already accepted 257 this year, there's potentially a reasonable argument for them accepting more - up to 270.

Edited

Thank you for your reply. So do you mean thos supports our case? Or will thru argue this new increase is fir next year. My son is 5th on the waiting list.

Also I understand the hearing is in 2 stages. When do I ask my questions in relation to PAN, class sizes and new building?

I have email from the classroom.that the building is ready for handover in October

OP posts:
TheGoldenGate · 18/09/2024 14:02

Is the first stage a group session? Or only you? I would ask asap

Wasteof · 18/09/2024 14:04

Beizzyanddizzy · 18/09/2024 13:53

Thank you for your reply. So do you mean thos supports our case? Or will thru argue this new increase is fir next year. My son is 5th on the waiting list.

Also I understand the hearing is in 2 stages. When do I ask my questions in relation to PAN, class sizes and new building?

I have email from the classroom.that the building is ready for handover in October

Show quote history

As someone suggested up-thread, the 17 over this year's 240 PAN may have been successful appeals from last term, if it was clear that the building was nearly ready. If so, you have a good chance of winning.

Those questions are asked at stage 1. If you don't ask them, I expect the panel will.

SallyWD · 18/09/2024 14:09

Beizzyanddizzy · 18/09/2024 13:53

Thank you for your reply. So do you mean thos supports our case? Or will thru argue this new increase is fir next year. My son is 5th on the waiting list.

Also I understand the hearing is in 2 stages. When do I ask my questions in relation to PAN, class sizes and new building?

I have email from the classroom.that the building is ready for handover in October

Show quote history

In our case we had a two stage appeal process. Stage 1 was the school outlining their case with over 30 other families joining online. The school were questioned by the panel and the parents. We didn't question the school but other parents did.
Stage 2 was just us, the panel, the headteacher and the admissions officer from the school. Stage 2 was all about our son and our case. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have found it appropriate to start fighting their case in the stage 2 meeting. The focus then, was very much on our son. If your system is the same as ours, I'd do it in stage 1. It might be different though.

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 18/09/2024 14:14

Wasteof · 18/09/2024 14:04

As someone suggested up-thread, the 17 over this year's 240 PAN may have been successful appeals from last term, if it was clear that the building was nearly ready. If so, you have a good chance of winning.

Those questions are asked at stage 1. If you don't ask them, I expect the panel will.

Show quote history

Thank you.

I asked the schools are no successful appeals this year.

What I find odd is, when I asked for the PAN numbers the admissions staff said this has never been asked before. Same when I asked about incidents due to overcrowding. So j don't have these yet. So no person appealing has asked for this info

OP posts:
Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 18/09/2024 14:17

Can anyone tell me the questions i should ask in stage 1 of the appeal hearing.

Really appreciated

OP posts:
TheGoldenGate · 18/09/2024 14:19

SallyWD · 18/09/2024 14:09

In our case we had a two stage appeal process. Stage 1 was the school outlining their case with over 30 other families joining online. The school were questioned by the panel and the parents. We didn't question the school but other parents did.
Stage 2 was just us, the panel, the headteacher and the admissions officer from the school. Stage 2 was all about our son and our case. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't have found it appropriate to start fighting their case in the stage 2 meeting. The focus then, was very much on our son. If your system is the same as ours, I'd do it in stage 1. It might be different though.

Show quote history

Same here. All questions were asked in the group stage 1meeting

Wasteof · 18/09/2024 14:35

Beizzyanddizzy · 18/09/2024 14:14

Thank you.

I asked the schools are no successful appeals this year.

What I find odd is, when I asked for the PAN numbers the admissions staff said this has never been asked before. Same when I asked about incidents due to overcrowding. So j don't have these yet. So no person appealing has asked for this info

Show quote history

The incidents due to overcrowding question is a red herring - a lack of incidents does not undermine the school's case for being full. If they had stated there were incidents, you could ask for numbers, but otherwise you're just heading down a rabbit hole.

If there were no successful appeals, then the additional 17 must have been planned allocation, so you need to ask them why 17, not 30 (pointing to next year's PAN). If it's just because the building won't be handed over in October , then it may help your case as it's nearly October.

SheilaFentiman · 18/09/2024 17:34

Just to double check - when the school said “no successful appeals this year” - did they mean from 1st sep 2024 to now or from offer day in March to now.

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 18/09/2024 18:07

SheilaFentiman · 18/09/2024 17:34

Just to double check - when the school said “no successful appeals this year” - did they mean from 1st sep 2024 to now or from offer day in March to now.

So there were appeal in June 2024 . There were none successful..and the next lot of appeals is on Friday. Apparently only us for year 7

OP posts:
Annony331 · 18/09/2024 18:21

17 over pan could be due to an agreement with the L.A. to take a bulge year.

could be X amount hard to place, plus a bulge year, addition of a learning resources. You would question this and how It was funded and how the allocation was made. Where your child is on the waiting list should not be discussed.

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 19/09/2024 09:46

My sons current school has very bad behaviour . That's why their ofsed rating Is 'needs improvement '. The report says that the teachers don't follow the behaviour policy and there is swearing, shouting and pushing in the corridors. This is my sons worst nightmare. He finds thus terrifying.

I know I can't criticise hos current school bit how can I tell the panel the school we are appealing for is outstanding either great Behaviour

OP posts:
Wasteof · 19/09/2024 09:53

Beizzyanddizzy · 19/09/2024 09:46

My sons current school has very bad behaviour . That's why their ofsed rating Is 'needs improvement '. The report says that the teachers don't follow the behaviour policy and there is swearing, shouting and pushing in the corridors. This is my sons worst nightmare. He finds thus terrifying.

I know I can't criticise hos current school bit how can I tell the panel the school we are appealing for is outstanding either great Behaviour

I don't think you can. All secondary schools have behaviour issues. Some manage it better than others. The Ofsted report from the offered school captures an inspector's impression from a moment in time (what was it's date?) and that school will be improving its processes on the back of the report. In the meantime, they will be helping many students manage anxiety issues. It isn't sustainable for all anxious children to move school because of a critical Ofsted report. You need to focus on what is exceptional about your child's need and why the appeal school is the only one that can cater for it (not an easy task).

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 19/09/2024 11:12

Wasteof · 18/09/2024 14:35

The incidents due to overcrowding question is a red herring - a lack of incidents does not undermine the school's case for being full. If they had stated there were incidents, you could ask for numbers, but otherwise you're just heading down a rabbit hole.

If there were no successful appeals, then the additional 17 must have been planned allocation, so you need to ask them why 17, not 30 (pointing to next year's PAN). If it's just because the building won't be handed over in October , then it may help your case as it's nearly October.

Edited
Show quote history

They sent me the incident report today.

It shows 2 incidents but it'd not dated

OP posts:
SallyWD · 19/09/2024 18:31

Beizzyanddizzy · 19/09/2024 09:46

My sons current school has very bad behaviour . That's why their ofsed rating Is 'needs improvement '. The report says that the teachers don't follow the behaviour policy and there is swearing, shouting and pushing in the corridors. This is my sons worst nightmare. He finds thus terrifying.

I know I can't criticise hos current school bit how can I tell the panel the school we are appealing for is outstanding either great Behaviour

This was exactly our situation. The school my son was placed in has been described as the wild west. Completely chaotic and out of control. A lot of bullying and fights. I know my DD would have been fine there. She's very confident and strong. My DS however, would have been eaten alive.
I couldn't say all this to the panel but I emphasised that his anxiety means he needs to be in a very calm environment, where behaviour is good and bullying is not tolerated. I referred to the ofsted report of the school we wanted, also anecdotal evidence "The children we know at this school have told us about the high behavioural standards and zero tolerance on bullying" etc

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 19/09/2024 19:32

SallyWD · 19/09/2024 18:31

This was exactly our situation. The school my son was placed in has been described as the wild west. Completely chaotic and out of control. A lot of bullying and fights. I know my DD would have been fine there. She's very confident and strong. My DS however, would have been eaten alive.
I couldn't say all this to the panel but I emphasised that his anxiety means he needs to be in a very calm environment, where behaviour is good and bullying is not tolerated. I referred to the ofsted report of the school we wanted, also anecdotal evidence "The children we know at this school have told us about the high behavioural standards and zero tolerance on bullying" etc

Show quote history

This is very helpful and good to know. Thank you

OP posts:
Rhayader · 20/09/2024 21:02

How did it go?

SallyWD · 30/09/2024 15:29

@Beizzyanddizzy Hi, I just wondered how it went? I hope it was successful and your son will soon be starting at your preferred school.

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 01/10/2024 10:24

SallyWD · 30/09/2024 15:29

@Beizzyanddizzy Hi, I just wondered how it went? I hope it was successful and your son will soon be starting at your preferred school.

My son started last week. Our appeal was successful 🙂. We are very happy.

The school said they had no case and they had space. So after all that, I didn't even say anything.

OP posts:
SallyWD · 01/10/2024 10:29

Beizzyanddizzy · 01/10/2024 10:24

My son started last week. Our appeal was successful 🙂. We are very happy.

The school said they had no case and they had space. So after all that, I didn't even say anything.

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I'm so happy for you! Congratulations! Wishing your son much happiness.

redtrain123 · 01/10/2024 10:39

So pleased. Well done, and thank you for coming back to update.

Original poster
Beizzyanddizzy · 01/10/2024 10:53

SallyWD · 01/10/2024 10:29

I'm so happy for you! Congratulations! Wishing your son much happiness.

Show quote history

Thank you so much. The morning of the hearing honestly felt like I'd won the lottery 🙂

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