2 modern languages for A levels

[clevud]

My daughter likes languages and has high marks (9). My question is, does a combination of 2 modern foreign languages facilitate access to some good 6th forms? Languages are under subscribed and in one North London 6th form we were told that she'd get a place very easily if she chose to study both. I wonder if that is true also for some other more prestigious 6th forms such as Woodhouse or Henrietta Barnett, provided she meets the criteria.

If you can show you have aptitude to learn languages GCHQ will train you up in whatever language they need. Friend of mine did French and Russian but got a job at GCGQ and learnt Persian.

She really won’t, unless she decides she wants to do biochemistry or something and didn’t also take biology and chemistry. For most humanities courses she will be absolutely fine with 2 languages and another humanity.

I agree that that candidate was not a good one - that's the point I am trying to make - that even a native speaker will need to do some work and research.

A level MFL involves teaching actually - and not teaching grammar so much as that should be there from GCSE - so yes it does involve teaching and practising and discussing the topics. I'm not really sure what you think should be happening in five lessons a week.

But yes a student should also be doing a lot of research in their own time. Both on the 12 topics covered and especially on the work for their IRP.

I'd like to clarify that I am concerned about the impact of native speakers on MFL A levels. One factor is that non-natives are put off, which is a real shame - and of course makes the issue worse. But I am genuinely not sure what you can do. There is such a range of native speaker, from someone who has lived in the country for years and whose parents speak the language at home, to someone who is said to be "fluent" but in fact can only string a few sentences together. I have come across students across the spectrum, and I am not sure that a declaration of parents' heritage would help - or be fair.

@clary Pre testing! A decent teacher really will suss this out. My DD had to put up with the former. The latter doesn’t really count. Oxford certainly love the former too!

It's a range - not one or the other. Obvs the person with just a few sentences has no advantage; but the fluent speaker clearly does. The people in between - well where do you put the boundary? If a teacher has to assess and label the student as native speaker or not - with consequent penalties for the native speaker (if that's what you are suggesting - or should they sit a different exam?) then I am not sure that will be popular with MFL teachers.

Re these intimidatingly fluent French speakers studying ( and sometimes still failing it seems! ) French A level.

Are these pupils from Francophone Africa ? How do these candidates get on with the literature element? ( If there even is one now!)

I doubt if any of the native speakers fail. I was just suggesting that they might not easily get an A star if they did no work.

IME they are from various places - some of Francophone African heritage, some from France, some maybe with a French parent but they are from GB. I don’t ask them tho.

Yes as I have said there is a literature element. French speaking candidates need to work at this like anyone else. Obviously accessing the text is more straightforward for them.

@clary Schools administer a national test as they do for any student. Do it in y9. Telling the truth about background too which must be on UCAS. Being honest might actually encourage MFLs instead of turning dc off. Every student knows who these dc are! Many don’t study MFLs of course but plenty do.

I’ve been thinking about this since I posted earlier. We seem to level the playing field with contextual offers and no one says that’s wrong. However when DC have a distinct advantage throughout secondary and degree education we turn away and say levelling the playing field is too difficult. So on reflection at uni level there should be a mechanism for levelling the playing field. Life long immersion in a culture and language is an advantage, so surely unis could work out how to give others a chance to level the playing field? Surely we know dc who only start MFLs at 11 or 12 are behind the curve? They must be. So what carrot can be dangled by unis to persuade them to keep going? We dangle lower grades to others, so is that the answer? Or bursaries? It requires honesty and a declaration of language acquisition but that seems fair as others have to declare independent schools.

I think that's a really good and actually workable idea. Unis must be aware of the disparity - tho tbf at least some of the native speakers I see are taking the A level as an easy win rather than with the plan to take it at uni. But yes offers with lower grades for non natives, esp if backed up with offers of extra language support at uni (I would have loved that) would seem to be a valid move. Up to unis to do it tho.

@clary Thank you for that. I do believe we need something to boost these subjects and recognise their value. Let’s hope a uni reads this!

So these native speakers' scores are not counter weighted in any way?
How can that possibly be fair?
And what on earth merit or value is an A* in a modern foreign language, when the language is not actually foreign?

OK @Words, one large element of the A level spec, as already mentioned is analysis of a book and a film (or two books) which calls for skills beyond basic knowledge of language.

And as I have stated, the rest of the course is looking at political, social and cultural themes that also demand a fair amount of research and extra learning. So this will need to be done by the student, native speaker or not.

What the merit is of this - well it’s certainly true that some candidates take an A level in their native language to get an "easy A/A-star" - I've come across that. I still think it has some merit, as unless they do some work (which is where the value comes in for me) they won't get an A, as I have mentioned.

And as for the qu of their scores not being counter-weighted - while I agree that this presents an issue, and the greater the proportion of native speakers the worse that is, I genuinely don't see what you can do. There is such a range of "native speaker". My mother spoke another language than English until she was five - so that was her mother tongue - my name could suggest I spoke it too - but do I? no, not a word.

Someone could have a German name and speak no German; or be called John Smith and be fluent. The only way to assess would be to ask candidates to self-declare (and then mark them down in some way, or make the GB higher) and I don't see how that could be policed. I mean who will check that they are telling the truth?

I think the idea of redressing the balance at university (in terms of grade required, or support once there) is a good one and more workable.

If a non-native speaker works hard and puts in the time and effort, and has a good level of skill and knowledge from GCSE to build on, and is able enough at languages, they can gain an A-star. Native speakers don't make that impossible. Candidates who reach a certain standard will get the top mark - and that does not vary radically from year to year.

Germany is the main trading party in Europe with the UK. French being one of the official languages of the European Commission is just a hangover.

Many STEM students will take German A Level for an engineering placement.

@Airbrush24 2431 entries for German A level last year . Many Stem students do not take German. By any definition, this is not “many” at all. It’s very few.

@clary I think a lot of MFL teachers know who these dc are. The ones with switched on parents do all those things you mention. Start testing and make it necessary to declare advantage. Of course these dc know about culture and literature. They don’t just chat about TikTok at dinner! I’m not sure who you have met but many dc are given huge advantages by staying with relatives etc. it’s far more than speaking a bit. Why should a decent linguist have to work much harder to be as good? It’s demoralizing but anyone who does has a talent. A greater talent quite possibly and hasn’t taken an easy option. Did your DC take MFLs?

I should have written that many students (although the number be small) combine German with Stem. 🚗

@TizerorFizz one of my DC took MFL A level.

I wonder what you would say should be done with the "native speaker" info. I agree that some students have an advantage; but there is such a range IME, and I have worked with a good number of native and non-native speakers. Many of them don't discuss literature at the dinner table btw. Would there be a sliding scale of penalty?

I think one thing we need to bear in mind is that the playing field will never be level. If your parents were professional musicians, what an advantage to do A level music. Armand Duplantis is the WR holder in pole vaulting - his dad was an amazing vaulter and I believe had a PV bed in the back garden.

Some DC don't even have a table to do their homework on or anyone buying them a laptop to research. WP is a great thing for unis to try to give all an opportunity and I am massively in favour. I wish the MFL playing field could be levelled too but I am just not sure how practical it is.

Well some children will have some sort of advantage - sorry- privilege of one kind or another, and others - far too many- will be struggling in pretty dismal circumstances. I do take your point.

It just feels to me very unfair that native speakers can take their native language as MFL, maybe do little work, like the child you mentioned, and even then manage to scrape a pass- because they can basically speak and understand the tongue they were brought up in. When other pupils are really trying to reach the standard.

I wonder if native English speakers in France are permitted to take English as an MFL element of the bacc? Or if bacc candidates from Francophone Africa are able to take French as an MFL? If so then I will shut up and go away!

@Words I have to say I don’t know about France. There is no doubt that native speakers from MC families do have an advantage. When, for example, dc stay with grandparents in, say, France, of course they pick up news and culture and can use that to inform A level work and uni work. I think native speakers can give an even bigger advantage to dc if they are teachers themselves, as I witnessed and DD was very aware of this at uni. DD was lucky to have a MFL teacher who tried to replicate culture by giving dc extra opportunities but most dc don’t get that lucky,

Yes, there’s advantage all round but Mondo doesn’t pole vault because his dad helped him. He is also competing against other hugely talented self selecting people with coaches coming out of their ears. Most ordinary MFL pupils don’t get this and their hard work in catching up isn’t recognised.

I did 2 languages at A level and then went on to do French and Economics at uni. Both at A level and degree level, it was hard.

I know lots of people from unj who then flipped into law or business after. She could expand into different languages at uni such as Russian, which could be of interest to the likes of GCHQ

I'd like to make it clear (in case someone google searches Mondo for him) that I am a massive fan of Duplantis (watched him set a WR in Paris yay) and I think he is an enormously talented and dedicated athlete. Without that, all the support in the world from his 5.8m vaulting dad would be worth a lot less. But for sure it must have been a boost to him that his dad even thought of putting a pole in his hand when he was about five years old. And most ppl don't get that.

We all surely do all we can and use any pull we have to support our DC. I taught MFL in school so hey! massive advantage for my DC right there. I'm sure we can all think of many other examples.

I'll say it again, there is such a range of native speakers. I have worked with students who lived several years in a German or French-speaking country and yes that helped them, but they still needed to be able and work hard for a chance of a top grade. I'm not sure that disadvantaging them in some way(higher GB for an A, say) would have helped anyone. It's not a race where only one person gets the gold (and as such my athletics analogy fails!). There is room for many students to gain A star – the marks are there to be gained.

Last year I examined a student for A level who was a native speaker. OMG had they done their prep work. They knew their IRP inside out and had amazing answers for my questions; they were all over the stimulus card and knew the spec really well. All of those actions are available to a non-native speaker too. Far too many don't do them unfortunately, both native and non-native as it goes.