2 modern languages for A levels

[clevud]

My daughter likes languages and has high marks (9). My question is, does a combination of 2 modern foreign languages facilitate access to some good 6th forms? Languages are under subscribed and in one North London 6th form we were told that she'd get a place very easily if she chose to study both. I wonder if that is true also for some other more prestigious 6th forms such as Woodhouse or Henrietta Barnett, provided she meets the criteria.

Anecdotally that also continues at University. Good Universities want to continue to offer a range of languages, so grade requirements for MFL students can be lower, whilst applying for joint degrees such as "history and German" at say Oxford, can be less competitive (because there are fewer applicants, not necessarily because the applicants are weaker) and adding a language into humanities can be valuable. .

Yes it is definitely true for uni – offers for popular unis are likely to be lower for MFL than for (say) English or history – to compare (kind of like) with like.

I did French A level and work abroad for an International Organsiation in HR. My degree was business based. And my workplace uses French and English.

My daughter did German and French A levels and is trilingual due to family (husband is German) and growing up abroad. She did a humanities degree followed by a business related Masters.

And now works in the City in Finance dealing with European clients.

A levels in languages don’t just lead to teaching and translation jobs

@clary would you be able to comment on the usefulness of language courses abroad for children at GCSE and A-level?

What I noticed when DC recently just did GCSEs was there were specific areas of vocab she needed to know - also use of tenses and higher level phrases and idioms to get a higher grade.

It was quite specific what she would need to know in terms of content for the course.

Is that the same for A-level? Are there specific things you need to trot out to get the best grade?

I am wondering then, would time abroad on a Cactus language course, for instance, for a couple of weeks be helpful for GCSE French and German - and the same question for A-levels?

Thank you for any thoughts. The courses are not cheap but I wonder if being surrounded by the language helps? I think it helped me, many moons ago but the exams have changed since then and seem to be quite specific in what you say and how you say it - ie, no hesitancy and that kind of thing.

She shouldn't choose 2 languages just to get a place in a good sixth form. She should choose two languages because they are what she wants to study and is good at. If that's the case and it helps get her a place in her chosen 6th form, great, but do not for a minute assume that MFL A levels are easy. They are among the most challenging.

I totally agree. She'd choose 2 languages because she likes them, I (the mother) am thinking more in practical terms. I graduated in modern foreign languages and literatures, I've spoken foreign languages most of my life, so I know how demanding these subjects are, but I’m also aware of the valuable skills their study can bring.
There are two “buts” that I discuss with my DD: firstly, choosing one or two languages at A level or for a degree should be done because one has a passion for the cultures and literatures related to that language, otherwise one can pick up a language in a gap year or some good afterschool courses.
Secondly, the A level system is already terribly narrow compared to other countries' education and for this reason I think pupils should try to choose diverse subjects to keep broadening their knowledge. So lots of "existential" questions, hopefully she'll make up her mind!

Oh I love a languages thread! I have always adored languages and did French, German, Maths and Economics at A Level. DD is also a linguist (Y12) and aiming for an Arabic-based degree course.

OP is your DD current Y11? In our experience Woodhouse would probably be easier to get into with 2 MFL than with more popular combinations. CSG would depend upon the third option (if any one of your chosen subjects is full with higher-ranked candidates then you don’t get in). Don’t know about Henrietta Barnett.

Hi @Mabs49 so it’s fair to say that time spent in a country will always improve your language skills, especially speaking. This is enhanced if you spend longer there (weeks or months rather than days) and your days are filled with interactions in the native language (you study at uni there, you work there, you socialise with native speakers). So a year abroad as a language assistant is a lot better than a weekend in Paris seeing the sights. In terms of courses, I don’t know about any specifically so I can’t advise if they are worth it. The Cactus courses you mention permanently ceased trading in July this year, according to its LinkedIn profile, but I guess there are others. I presume they involve staying in the country and going to classes where the target language is spoken and taught – all broadly good but it’s dependent how much they cost and whether you can afford that as to whether they are useful enough to justify the cost.

Also time with a tutor who knows the exam specs might be of more immediate benefit.

In terms of specifics sought in GCSE and A level exams, I actually think it is a good thing that the GCSE spec is specific about what it is looking for in answers – it helps candidates prepare for the exam. You may agree, but when you say “trot out” phrases it sounds like you don’t maybe?

All GCSE specs actually state what is needed; MFL is not unique there. The kinds of things I am talking about are use of opinions and reasons for them in speaking and writing; and yes, use of a range of tenses (or at least reference to past, present and future) – these seem very reasonable, as does a range of vocab (eg for GCSE you may need to know and use vocab around environmental issues or charity, among several other topics). That’s all good I think. It’s not the case, whatever your DC may have been told, that you won’t gain a grade 9 unless you use [insert specific idiomatic phrase here]. But there are marks for using a range of language and structures and the more confident variation there is, the higher the mark. A grammatically perfect but simply structured piece of writing may score a high mark for accuracy but a lower mark for range of language and communication, for example.

You mention hesitation – yes there is a mark for fluency in the speaking exam but that’s fair enough I think. And for GCSE it’s just 5 marks out of 60 in that exam, so 5 out of 240 in the overall GCSE, so it’s hardly crucial. And to gain 5/5 the spec explicitly states that native speaker standard is not required. So the odd pause or “hmm” is not going to lose anyone a grade 9 (assuming they are otherwise at that standard).

So for A level – all of that and more applies. The examiner is looking (for example) for technical terms when writing about the film (such as phrases relating to camera technique); they are looking for similar analysis when writing about the book (much as GCSE Eng lit does tbh). Students need to learn specific vocab, yes, relating to the topics studied which, as I mentioned earlier, are quite in-depth and political, relating specifically to the country and culture studied – so for French, the importance of the patrimoine and Francophone music (and 10 others); for German the impact of the fall of the Berlin wall and politics among the young people (and 10 others). There will be for sure a lot of new vocab and stats, and a top student will need to have that at their fingertips, especially for the speaking exam.

Sorry for the long long post! I feel a bit defensive here but I do get so fed up of MN posters (NOT anyone here!) commenting that there is no point taking GCSE MFL because basically you are not fluent in German after it - well of course not. What it does do is provide a grounding in the language, much the same way as any other GCSE provides a grounding in that subject. And a GCSE candidate who got a higher grade should be able to converse and understand text on a reasonable range of topics tbh.

Thank you @clary all very helpful.

I guess the 'trot out' was that DD who just got a 9 in French GSCE and an 8 for her Spanish GCSE learnt a huge amount of phrases and sentences almost off by heart. Not completely as there was such a vast amount to learn it was nigh on impossible but from Year 9 she was writing full sentences to GCSE style questions that would form the basis of her revision and memorisation. This was for the oral but in the end, much of it was recycled for the rest of the exam.

I found a higher level phrases document online which we then added to her sentences - so there was a lot of writing and stuffing in idioms and phrases here and there to try and make it sound natural.

As it was she lost just 3 marks on her speaking oral for French, and 12 for Spanish (always put in less work there). So it worked overall.

But anyway, it did feel quite formulaic at times and so I was wondering if it's the same kind deal for A-Level and it sounds like it is. It makes sense then that a native speaker would not necessarily get full marks if they aren't clued up as the range of tenses, idioms, opinion-related language and subject areas they'd need the full vocab for to get top marks. It requires some planning and forethought.

Thank you for your answer. I'm asking for my other DC who is not as much of a linguist but will probably need to choose a language for A-Level as STEM is not their thing we don't think and trying to work out just how much support they will need.

It can't hurt to send on a language course but it does seem as though these specifics which are needed may not be taught on such a course. Weighing up the pros and cons. I didn't know about Cactus, that's interesting.

For DC2 it would be German and the Goethe Institute has some two and three week courses. I feel a bit nervous as they are run in the Alps in Bavaria and I'm not sure the German there would be like the high German you want to be listening to and speaking. But as it's Goethe I'd hope there would be high German speakers. https://www.goethe.de/ins/de/en/jug.html

For French I'm not sure where the best place is. I need to look further and find somewhere truly motivating. I've seen the Alpine French School but it's very expensive and again not sure if it's more of a fun camp and how much French will be learnt!

@Mabs49

You would probably find these courses of interest, Mabs.

https://www.institut-francais.org.uk/french-courses/gcse-alevel-revision/#/

https://www.goethe.de/ins/gb/en/spr/kur/fer/kuj.html

londres.cervantes.es/en/courses_spanish/students_spanish/gcsc_as_preparation_spanish.htm

Thank you @TheSquareMile that's really helpful.

I wonder would you know of any good apps for language learning?

DC2 tried Duolingo but got fed up with the gamification of it. Found learning streaks and badges and the like started to grate.

I've tried Memrise but I find it a bit disjointed for some reason. It's quite random. Not to say it's not good but it doesn't follow GCSE syllabus from what I can see.

DC2 was doing pretty well in tests with doing a bit of Duolingo every day but has now sort of 'had it' with the app and seems like there's no going back so now I'm stuck with finding something else!

@Mabs49

I'm not sure about the App situation, Mabs, but @clary might know of something.

I do know that GCSE Bitesize is a useful tool for students at that level.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/levels/z98jmp3

A resource I did want to share was the Mary Glasgow website, as the content looks so interesting. I did my O Levels, A Levels and MFL degree a long time ago, so wouldn't have had this as a resource. I know I would have loved it, though.

Just as I discovered it, it seemed to be closing, but there seems to be recent content in French and Spanish, so I'm not sure what is happening there. The section which does unfortunately seem to have ceased is the German one, my strong suit.

https://maryglasgowplus.com/

When I was a 6th former, I subscribed to Paris Match and loved seeing it on the mat when I got home from school!

@TheSquareMile thanks so much for the Mary Glasgow website. What a cool resource!! Even I might dip in 😁lots of really interesting topics.

I know the name Paris Match but I’ll need to look it up now to remember it properly! Happy days at sixth form, I enjoyed my A levels too, I did German but not French which I sometime regret.

Wrt apps I rate Duolingo actually but obvs not good if someone doesn't enjoy it. Memrise should have content linked to the GCSE text books - is there a log in from school that would help here? Quizlet is good for revision. I agree tho there is a dearth of good MFL learning apps.

Well done @Mabs49 to your DD on her great results. I agree that practising answers to GCSE style questions is a really good way to embed learning and practise vocab and structures, and worth doing as soon as you start with your GCSE topics.

I would say that learning many example answers is not the only way to gain a high grade, but it is one way, and if a student has a facility for rote learning and less confidence in language manipulation, it may be a good way.

I can see why this made you feel the GCSE is formulaic in approach – though that would only apply to speaking and writing, which is only half of it. I don’t see that it is any more formulaic than most other GCSEs tho – for Eng lit your essay on R&J needs to make some of these points, it needs to reference and explain x many quotes, it needs to make points and explain them – there is a mark scheme with AOs for every GCSE.

Anyway I fear I have done the A level course an injustice if you think it sounds formulaic.
For the speaking element (I’m talking about AQA here tho the specs are similar on other boards) candidates put together a research project on a topic related to the culture of the country or anywhere that language is spoken. They have to use TL sources and draft a 2 min speech then be ready to answer (any) questions and discuss for 10 mins. This is very much led by the student and their interests. They also have to discuss one of the 12 topics studied including questions like “what do you think of this project?” (something they have had 5 mins to prepare) and “how big is the issue of racism in German-speaking countries?” – answering using stats and facts and their own opinions. My point wrt native speakers is that, like English speakers, they would need to learn all that info. I would think they would know how to use tenses. It is important to follow the spec tho – for example the student needs to ask two questions and not all remember to do this.

They analyse a book and a film – again a chance to show what they know and what they have learned, in quite a creative way – no wrong answers as long as you can argue the point.

It’s a great course and I highly recommend it. I would advise that a student needs to gain at least a 7 at GCSE or they won’t have the necessary language skills to access the A level curriculum.

My child did 2 languages at A level as well as a couple of other subjects. Now speaks 4 languages and is studying a fifth. Travels a lot for work and uses all of them. Definitely worthwhile.
Had a brilliant time at a very supportive 6th form college.

But the applicant would still have to meet both the general requirements for the school (e.g. 50 points from best 8 GCSEs, at least a 5 in English Language and Maths regardless of A level choices, no grades within the 8 below a 5 or whatever) and any additional requirements for each individual A level to be studied. It's just that MFL tend to be less popular than, say, the Maths / Chemistry / Biology combo (particularly in a school where a lot of parents - sorry, students - aspire to Medicine) and whereas adding a 15th (or 5th!) student to a French class isn't going to be a problem, adding an extra to a subject where going above a certain number would mean that an extra teaching group would have to be set up would not be feasible.

If your idea is that the applicant could get themselves into a 'desirable' sixth form by applying to take subjects likely to be undersubscribed and then swap to the popular A levels that they actually want, that would almost certainly backfire.

@Mabs49 I realised today I didn't answer your question about the courses abroad. The only ones I now about are those run by the Goethe Institut and that's only from someone who was a student there - but they rated them highly. Don't worry about them being in the Alps in terms of German - my strongly accented Rheinland Deutsch has never been an issue.

I would say tho that any course like that, while it will support with language skills, general vocab, fluency and understanding (all good) is unlikely to teach the specific topics needed for A level, so as such it can't be any kind of substitute.

Btw if your DS is less of a linguist, MFL A level may bot be for him. There are plenty of other non-STEM options - history, RS, gov/pol, sociology, drama, Eng lit or lang... (not saying these are easier btw! just that unless a student is confidently scoring a 7 at GCSE, the language expectation at A level will be a real challenge.

I did two languages at A and degree level. I have not used my languages at work a lot but if I’d done History or Geography I probably wouldn’t have used them unless I taught either. They got me a graduate job in publishing alongside Oxford English grads so can’t have been too terrible. I just enjoyed them so kept carrying on, and I enjoyed learning about history, literature and culture. It was like any humanities degree but with terrifying oral exams!

I did breeze through GCSEs but A levels were hard. We worked so hard for them, English was a breeze by comparison. And my final degree German translation was in Swiss German which was extremely challenging (/impossible).

Thank you @clary

DS probably is pretty OK for one language at A Level though we'll see, still must get through GCSE first so we'll see how that goes. DD managed it without much extra support but she is well above average, like very much above average in terms of memorisation and recall so it's probably not fair to compare them.

With hard work I think DS could probably get a good grade, like at least a 7.

The issue would be doing it in 2 languages as I think it does demand more processing somehow doing two than one.

Thank you for the info on the Goethe courses. It makes sense with it being German that it's so well run! I must not run into stereotypes but it's hard not to have a moment where you just laugh and think "well of course, it's German so of course it would be well run!"

It's reassuring to hear from someone who knows about these things though, that the courses are solid. I may well suggest it to DS then though he's a fussy eater and I'm not sure how he'd feel about German food! But that's part of the experience and growing up and I'm sure he'd cope for 2 weeks, especially if it increased his confidence and improved his general knowledge of German. Just confidence in putting the verb to the end, little idioms and phrases you pick up when you're there. I hope it would all help.

And as for me finding the courses formulaic - they probably are somewhat but I would probably call all courses of all types formulaic. I'm not keen on hoops that a person has to jump through to ascertain certain levels and things but that's just my character so take no notice of me :) in the end we have to measure something don't we - therefore, this is probably how it has to be. Could I come up with a better system? Probably not.

Thank you for your excellent description of A-levels which was interesting and insightful.

Language graduates are incredibly employable. They are marked out as having close eye for detail, for their flexibility and resilience (year abroad) and intercultural competence. Multinational banks increasingly want to employ workforces that speak the languages of their clients, so like languages graduates. The humanities side of their degrees means that they are good at researching and presenting reports on quite intangible things such as the quality of a working environment. And there’ll still be a need for translators with nuance. AI doesn’t do away with a need for languages. That’s like suggesting nobody needs to do maths because of computers.

I don’t mean computers, I mean calculators.

Yes, an old friend did French with business studies and has never looked back. Real high flyer. She loved her year abroad too in southern France.

Hi @clevud ! What did you and your daughter decide in the end as her A Level choices?

My daughter wanted to do three A Level European languages - two modern, one ancient - but settled for just one of each in the end, plus two other subjects. She is happy now because these two other subjects have given her so much.

She was told by her school and by universities - Cambridge, St Andrews, UCL, for example - that any combination of A Levels was fine so long as she could demonstrate she would be ready for a particular course. Also, a number of her friends actually changed A Levels during Year 12.

So I would gently encourage her to check with university course web sites and let her work it out that way by the end of her own Year 12. My daughter's A Levels did not change but her university course focus definitely took a U turn by the time she started Year 13.

Her advice today is to do the A Levels you enjoy because that way you will do the best and end up on the university course that best suits you.Then enjoy your degree course and that will help you get the best degree you are capable of. This course and this achievement will naturally lead to a career choice or you can easily do a 'transition course', for example from a Music Degree to a Technology job as a close friend did recently.

Congratulations to your daughter on her grades, by the way!

@clevud I can't speak to that, but at least for some exam boards there seems to be an issue with overly harsh marking on modern languages, because native speaks get the top marks.

This is from 2019, but a young relative got caught by this, and having check w some friends in academia, it's still an issue
www.ox.ac.uk/news/arts-blog/are-modern-foreign-languages-exams-too-difficult

That’s very interesting. @clary as an up to date teacher of MFL, would you be able to comment? Have there been any adjustments?