2 modern languages for A levels

[clevud]

My daughter likes languages and has high marks (9). My question is, does a combination of 2 modern foreign languages facilitate access to some good 6th forms? Languages are under subscribed and in one North London 6th form we were told that she'd get a place very easily if she chose to study both. I wonder if that is true also for some other more prestigious 6th forms such as Woodhouse or Henrietta Barnett, provided she meets the criteria.

Sorry just realised I never answered the question! The narrative is that the only people gaining the top grades in MFL A levels are native speakers, that they all gain A-star, and it’s impossible for non-natives to do well. I don’t accept that, though of course a native speaker has an advantage. But native speaker levels of language are not needed, even for A level. And as already stated, any A level candidate will have to work and learn. I have certainly come across native speakers who thought they didn’t need to do any work and they have come out with Bs or even lower grades, and non-native speakers who gained A or A-star. They had to work hard tho. But then that's the idea, surely.

The issue is made worse bc the numbers of native speakers are probably fairly static in the UK (pretty low) but as a proportion of those taking MFL A level, they are higher and growing, as more non-natives panic/think they cannot take the A level. So then the issue becomes worse – it’s a bit of a vicious circle. This is a potential issue especially in German, IMHO, as very very few candidates sit it at all (about 2,400 compared to more than 107,000 sitting maths, admittedly the most popular A level). That Guardian article suggests 17% natives sitting German.

Interestingly over the last few years it has certainly been easier to get a high grade in German than in French in AQA. The specs and papers for the different MFLs are identical but (for example) when DD took French (2019) her marks, which got her a mid-range C, would have got her a mid-range B in German. This year the German boundaries have risen a bit but there is still a big disparity – 280 would have got you a very high C in French and a solid mid B in German. Spanish boundaries this year were very similar to German. The boundary for an A-star is about the same across the different MFLs this year.

I don’t think this is in response to the native speaker issue tho. I am not aware of any concessions to non-native speakers – tbh how would you know? Someone could be called Heidi Regensburg and never speak German at home; someone else could be called Jessica Jackson and have a German mother who brought them up bilingual.

It’s also worth noting that the proportion of pupils getting A stars in languages is higher than in many other subjects. I’ll try and dig out the newspaper article where I saw this.

@blackpear Yes, that’s true. Maths has more though. I think MFLs are marmite. You would not go near them unless you had a certain talent. A bit like music! Most dc aren’t interested and see them as difficult. This leaves the talented and well taught as being most likely to take A levels in MFL and a high proportion will therefore do well. There are plenty of hidden native speakers and this undoubtedly helps the results. MFL parents certainly can coach dc from an early age if they are teachers! So the playing field definitely isn’t level, It’s a bit like wondering why Oxbridge awards lots of firsts. They have the brightest students! MFLs attract the brightest and best linguists and there aren’t many of them!

Thank you for such interesting posts sparked by my question: I learned a lot and am now convinced it is a good combination to have two languages and another subject. Pity DD has now changed her mind and wants one language with some unpalatable subjects she's never studied and doesn't even know what they are. I want to hybernate .

I did A level French and German alongside Pure Maths with Statistics and GCSE Spanish.
I then went on to become an accountant. Once qualified I had a few years working in Practice and then moved into industry. I interviewed for several companies over the next few years where those language skills could have been used.
(German also came in useful with my Austrian boyfriend and at a later date Spanish meant I could communicate with a Portuguese boyfriends family 🤪)

@clevud MFLs open quite a lot of uni doors if paired with a sensible third subject. Unis want linguists. They don’t especially want lots with odd subject combinations.

What does she want to study now? Might not be as bad as you fear. Lots of people I knew studied MFL with something like politics or drama or philosophy.

Drama and mfl would be really hard to find now. English and a MFL is more common. MFL is best at a top tier uni from an academic viewpoint. Therefore thinking about breadth of modules and unis to attend abroad matters.

I think it is useful to make a distinction between language acquisition and the study of a language.

Speaking/reading a language is acquiring a skill, not too far from learning to drive. You learning by practising. . Yes you need some understanding of grammar, and it is advisable to sit down and memorise vocabulary, but much of it is immersing yourself in the language. When I worked in Germany, I learned some of my initial German by watching Sesame Strasse, backed up by evening classes, and finding a flat share with Germans. Only later, when I already had conversational German, and wanted to take it to a higher level, did I take some intensive Goethe Institut courses. Similarly DD picked up her French because her sports club was close to the Lycee CDG so a good third came from there, and then through connections she met on holiday she was invited to train, and compete, with a club in an industrial part of Northern France. Her French is a horrid mix of Lebanese/Parisian slang and Chi'ti, but during her gap year ski season, the French chalet owners picked her to interpret over those with A level and planning to study MFL at University. (They wanted to gossip, she had the right vocabulary. It also earned her extra drinks in the local bar.)

Academic study is different.

I suspect that unless you are bilingual it is difficult to find translating/interpreting jobs, in part because so many grow up speaking more than one language. However speaking additional languages helps give you and international viewpoint, and, assuming you have the commercial skills they want, is welcomed by many international employers, as it makes it easy to post you elsewhere or work with clients from different countries. (I have a Polish tenant who has just started with a major Investment Bank and who is fluent in English, French, German and perhaps more. Easy to see why he is a more attractive hire than say a monolingual Brit with the same LSE degree.) Depending on what she
wants to do one option is to take a language at A level and then read something like "economics with language" with a year abroad, and perhaps picking up a second language ab-initio at University.

My old uni (Bristol), which is where I was thinking of obvs, offers German with theatre, film, philosophy, politics.. much as it did 40 years ago :)

Yes, my goddaughter did French and Drama a couple of years ago at Bristol. You can do Drama and French at Exeter too.

Yes but I didn’t say they were impossible - just not many!

but even for a native speaker of French, French A level is a challenge requiring hard work, and a top grade is not a given.

Students need to write essays in target language about a film and a book, using excellent language and also good analysis. They also learn about a range of topical and political issues such as immigration and strikes, and have to be able to speak and write about these – so even a native speaker cannot just rock up and do it.

Not students please, children or pupils .

How much of this is truly unseen, in exam conditions?

How much can be cheated using online resources?

How much of their 'original essay' is drummed into them word for word beforehand ? Or worse corrected as coursework over and again by their teacher until it scrapes through and passes Ofsted?

How is it remotely possible for a native French speaker not to be able to write a decent few paragraphs on strikes?

No wonder standards are plummeting and MFLs are a dying breed.

It's dreadful.

Native speakers usually have relatives in (eg) France and at least one parent who is French. My friend was half German, via her mum, and spent every summer holiday there with granny who didn’t speak English. Of course she had a massive advantage! Year abroad spent in family company. Ditto anyone whose parent actually teaches a MFL and is still culturally a native of their country. There needs to be a declaration of parental heritage! There’s an assumption that dc have just learnt to speak and understand a language but no more. I find that’s been the minimum and even that is still a huge advantage.

I think you are quoting me there - so I'll answer anyway.

Why not students? That's the word I would use. Children is certainly not a word I would use about an 18yo (which is how old many A level exam candidates are).

You ask how much of what I mention is unseen, in exam conditions? All of it.

None can be cheated using online resources as they have no access to the internet in an exam room, whether that is the written exams or the speaking exam.

The only element prepared in advance is the candidate's IRP - research project - so they can learn their two-minute speech. But that counts for 5 marks out of a total of 60 for the speaking exam.

The original essay cannot be drummed in as no one can be sure what the subject will be. Of course you practise essays in class and as HW on the main themes and you learn and revise phrases and vocab that are relevant to the film and book. But the exam essays are not corrected as coursework by the teacher - because, yes, it's an exam!

not sure what you mean by "passes Oftsed" btw - as far as I know Ofsted does not assess whether someone has passed their MFL A level.

How is it remotely possible for a native French speaker not to be able to write a decent few paragraphs on strikes?

I mean I have to say, I am not sure, as a native English speaker, I could off the top of my head write or speak several paragraphs about strikes in the UK, adducing facts and figures of when, why, how many people, what effect it had on the strikers and what was the result. Could you, honestly?

(edited to correct erroneous figure)

I found native speakers on my Uni course really off putting and it really dented my confidence.

@Drivingoverlemons I know others who gave up due to this.

Yes, I could easily write about strikes with a small amount of research, but I’m old!

Re strikes, yes of course I could.
I could even have a little stab at French strikes.
I recall reading that the French train drivers were arguing about the loss of the 'prime d'absence de prime'. It has always made me chuckle.

Even more so if say it was one of the five? 10 ? 20? 'Main (presumably socio- political) themes' I had been trained up to learn beforehand, complete with lists of vocab and stats.

In my mother tongue too.

Really well that's impressive. "Of course" tho? OK. I would suggest that most people couldn't - like I say, I am pretty well read and reasonably well informed, but I do not have at my fingertips, ie without research, a host of facts and figures about (for example) the history of strikes in the UK in the 21st century. It's great that you do tho. But I suspect you are a but unusual in that.

Anyway I hope my answers about the exam (and lack of teacher-amended coursework) in MFL A level were helpful.

Edited: yes of course you are trained up beforehand to have facts and stats about the A level themes - I mean that's my point. That's called study for A level and it's hardly controversial. What I am saying is that IMHO even a native speaker needs to do some work and learn some facts and figures in advance. Some without any doubt think they don't need to.

I asked a native speaker in an MFL speaking exam last year what they could tell me about issues for immigrants in the country in question - a theme they had chosen from two offered - and they quite frankly said they didn;t know anything about that. I was a bit "huh?" but I thuink that kind of makes my point (I assume this candidate had not done the work needed).

I can’t speak to whether it’s easier to get into particular schools but I really don’t understand the ‘what will she do with languages’ posts. I did 3 language A levels (and got all A* or A by the way despite no family heritage) plus English lit then studied languages at uni. I’m now 30 and work for the civil service and most of my classmates do not work in translation or teaching either, you can do pretty much anything with languages.

Actually, I believe GCHQ like to recruit any linguists, and then train them up in the languages they require. So a degree in any language (from an excellent university) is a good start for working in this area!

I asked a native speaker in an MFL speaking exam last year what they could tell me about issues for immigrants in the country in question - a theme they had chosen from two offered - and they quite frankly said they didn;t know anything about that. I was a bit "huh?" but I thuink that kind of makes my point (I assume this candidate had not done the work needed).

God how utterly depressing and what a total waste of your time and theirs. Not to even bother to try. It's hardly a difficult question.

I would have thought A level ( if that is what we are discussing here) would involve candidates doing their own research ( within a structure and with some guidance if needed) on the set topics rather than being fed phrases and facts. That used to be the difference between O and A level.

I believe that may well be right @maxandru.

Only do 2 if she wants to do a MFL degree otherwise she will limit herself.