Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

[noblegiraffe]

GCSE results day and therefore A-level sign-up day is coming.

So with that in mind I just thought I'd post the table of conversions from GCSE to A-level results for maths to show that there is a strong correlation. This is because A-level Maths basically starts with a quick review of grade 8/9 GCSE algebra content and then gets more difficult. Students starting with a 7 will have to work very hard to keep up, students with a 6 often flounder.

There are sixth forms and colleges that will accept students with a 6 onto A-level maths, but from many years of experience, this is not a good experience for the student. Many will drop out and switch courses early on (and therefore not appear in the results table), but some will struggle on for 2 years and then come out with a grade that really doesn't help them with university applications.

If you take A-level maths with a 6, even if you manage to complete the course (and a lot won't), about three quarters will get a D or below, with E the most common grade.

This data is from 2019 because obviously more recent data has been screwed up by covid.

If your child is keen to do maths, but gets a 6, please consider Core Maths which is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and provides supportive maths content for A-level sciences and social sciences (e.g. psychology, geography).

If your child is going to do A-level maths (particularly if they are on a 7 but also 8/9), check that they have done summer bridging work so they hit the ground running in September.

I should perhaps have added that DD2 went to a secondary modern so this dilemma over FM GCSE isn't unique to top schools.

Agreed, DS is at a Welsh medium comprehensive school.

In my DS maths class they start further maths this term.

It's funny how schools do it differently. She's in a Grammar school so they're all "top set" but further maths is only done as an after school/lunchtime extra.

Her physics mock is the worst of them all (just scraped a 7) so now she wants to ditch physics! I guess there's a few weeks to decide.

On Further Maths GCSE, my DS1 is now in year 13 so started it at the beginning of year 10, after school classes, but dropped out after a few weeks. I think this was timing, after two spells of lockdown, lessons from home etc, and also more lessons from home after the second lockdown because of teacher shortages for COVID and after effects type medical reasons, he was glad to get back to school but really wanted to enjoy being able to spend time after school with friends in person again.

Maths remained his favourite subject and he got offers from all 5 6th form applications (GCSEs at a 7-11 secondary school so everyone has to move on elsewhere) to study Maths, FM, Physics and Philosophy - 4 A levels and Further Maths so needed 7s in most subjects to study 4 A levels, 7/8 for Maths, 7 for Physics and an essay subject. One required an average of 7.5 across 8 best GCSEs (out of 9). So colleges and sixth forms, even two marketed as for high achievers/ambitious students and slightly more selective, didn't seem to be concerned about Further Maths even for students applying to do it at A level.

Honestly what I found hardest about A level chemistry was the sheer amount of rote learning you have to do (particularly for organic chemistry).

It took me getting a C in my mocks to accept that yes, I really did need to sit down and learn all of this off by heart like times tables, and there really wasn’t a shortcut or secret way to work it out from first principles (I was bright but very used to not having to work or revise much to get full marks)

Ah yes we've both said how we like being able to work our from first principles and it gets to a point where you can't do that.

The 6th formers told her biology was just rotw learning.

She wanted to do physics maths and chemistry but with scraping a 7 in physics she's now considering psych with maths and chem.

She loves all the subjects but also wants to aim for A grades. They put so much pressure on themselves 😬.

I remember when a B in a subject at gcse was considered a good grade....

I did also notice when DS1 got GCSE results in summer 2023, from the marks breakdown and boundary information, one thing I did notice is that to get 9 at GCSE, in his year, students had to get a much higher level of of marks for Maths than in any of the sciences - there was a 28 mark range across that to Maths grade, equal to 95-100% - DS1 was in the middle of that range (14 marks lost across 3 papers). Whereas in Triple Science, he got 9s with marks between 70 and 80% - I think high, mid and low 70s. In other subjects, he came out with a 7 in Religious Studies (chosen by him as a rumoured "easy" option, don't think it was true) on a higher percentage of marks than in his Sociology grade 8.

His sixth form prepares the students in the one FM class intensively (double lesson time etc) for Maths A level exams at the end of year 12 and then FM in year 13.

So he's making UCAS applications (for Maths) with one A* A level in hand. He also attended extra classes at a private school, offered to top students from a number of state sixth forms, and a couple of summer holiday things, a day school at UCL and a summer school at the private school. DS1 is clearly very keen to go for somewhere with a prestigious reputation, where I'm a bit sceptical about how some of these things are judged

DSThe extra exam for Oxford applications didn't go well for him and I suspect he's not going to be offered an interview - he hasn't told me whether he's heard one way or the other yet - I will ask at some point but it's a bit of a sensitive topic. But he has two conditional offers from RG universities which clearly use the early app process to attract high achieving and ambitious students (for example a special open day for early applicants who've also applied to Oxbridge, with an interview to determine the conditions of an offer rather than whether they will make one), that he likes and I think he could be happy and do well at either.

At my sons school they're doing it after school on Mondays and Tuesday as there isn't enough time to fit it in!

My school doesn't offer FM GCSE anymore. Colleges and universities absolutely shouldn't be making any entry decisions based on achievement in FM when there is such a variety in whether, when and how it is taught. Achievement in a top set doing it in lessons is going to be different to it being offered to a few keen pupils as an after school club.

I agree, and as I said above, 6th form colleges here don't seem to look at whether students did it - my DS1 got offers from all 5 places he applied to do A level Maths and Further Maths without having done it at A level - we're in North London - those include Woodhouse College which is quite high in national league tables, and the local (2nd branch) of London Academy of Excellence - which I don't like the sound of at all, but it does have a good reputation among some teachers and students. In the end he chose one of the expanded 6th forms that's part of a highly rated school on the other side of our borough. I think at degree level, doing A level FM probably does matter, but it didn't make a difference in to him being accepted on to an A level course. He had a slightly wobbly start in sixth form but I think that was down to being a bit distracted at that point, and he really got down to working hard and made up for it from January onwards.

Thanks @noblegiraffe that's actually a really useful way of thinking about it if DD decides she wants to do the exam - there's such a disparity in teaching that it's very unlikely any university would question why an applicant has a 'low' grade at FM GCSE and a high predicted grade at A-level maths (and/or A-level Further Maths). I worry about her spending a lot of time revising for GCSE FM - there are more important things for her to be spending time on than an 11th GCSE (even if only taking a break!).

I know this is old, but if you are around @noblegiraffe what is your source. Am after similar for other subjects. Thanks!

Hey @Hollyhedge the data was put together by someone who headed up the Maths exams dept at Edexcel, using their GCSE and A-level data (so I don't think it includes AQA and OCR but the vast majority of GCSE and A-level maths entries are Edexcel). I don't think it's from publicly accessible data unfortunately.

Thanks! I found Cambridge uni progression GCSE to A level but obviously Covid years skewed and I can’t find earlier years. 2018 -20 45% of those with a 7 at GCSE were getting B+ and 22% with a 6

www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/674348-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level-2018-2020.pdf

Just wanted to add an agreement for core maths. Dc got a 5 on the foundation paper for maths, opted for core maths, with agreement from the teachers to help with the maths elements of her other courses, (science and geography). It was such a good choice, the teachers are so pleased with the effort and progress and it definitely has helped those other courses. The UCAS points are an added bonus if they get their predicted grade.

Sounds good! My DS v keen to do A level maths and is looking at a 7. I am going to try and look into the stats a bit more. Covid has made recent comparisons more difficult.

Edited to say also comparing to other subjects. Obviously the correlation exists with all subjects, although I think maths and physics it is more pronounced. MFL pretty strong from what I can make out.

Yes to MFL - would not advise A level with anything less than a grade 7. The subject is Linear and A level assumes a good deal of GCSE knowledge.

Im thinking figures before 2018 would be of limited use as the GCSEs were so different? MFL is anyway.

Ooh interesting this thread has popped up. My duaghter is sitting gcses now and I see in November she definitely wasn't doing physics for A level... Right now she's talkinf as if maths, physics, chemistry were of course all she ever wanted to do!!

I really hope she gets the 8 she wants in maths. She said the first one went well but the grade boundaries are so high she could easily have dropped. Her maths teacher thinks she's clearly capable it's just the fear that if maths drops for her gcse her whole A level choices come undone 😬.

Chemistry which is her next favourite went well.Not sure about physics. Is physics still okay of you drop down?

The OP’s figures are 2017. I thought GCSEs reformed 2015??

Can’t find anything 16-18,17-19. Then it’s Covid. Link I gave above in terms of 6 at GCSE, 2020 A level, % getting B or above: 22% in Maths, Spanish 38%, E lit 48%. But for an A or A* Spanish and maths v similar for those with a 7: 18 and 19% chance, Eng lit 31% and History 27%.

Gives an idea of trend, even if inflated. Will try to find more recent, but pre-Covid data

English and maths reformed GCSEs were first sat in 2017, other subjects weren't till 2018.

Oh! So there really isn’t any reliable data then for other subjects, yet, because they all did A levels in Covid years…22-24? The tends gives enough of an idea for my purposes!

Yeh @Hollyhedge you are seeing 2015 as the year reformed GCSEs (in Eng and maths) started being taught... first exams in 2017. Then most other subjects (apart from tech and a few others) started 2016, exams in 2018. My DD did GCSEs in 2017 and as a result has a mix of letters and numbers. My DS2 took his in 2019 which was the first year you could get a number grade for DT and other tech subjects.

I know the most about MFL as it’s what I teach and there’s not much point looking at exam grades pre 2018 as the spec was so different. DD took French A level and found her GCSE was not much of a prep even tho she got an A (the A level spec was already reformed even tho the people taking it had sat the old GCSE).

20-22 report. If child gets a 7 in a GCSE odds of an A or A* at A level: maths 16%, Spanish 15%, Eng lit 23%, Biology 18%. Not hugely inconsistent although maybe more variance with B+. Anyone reading should also remember huge variability with child and support they had/ how hard they worked etc.

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/707601-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level-2020-2022.pdf

My son says he found the papers on tiktok so could go through them and work out what he had got wrong!