Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

[noblegiraffe]

GCSE results day and therefore A-level sign-up day is coming.

So with that in mind I just thought I'd post the table of conversions from GCSE to A-level results for maths to show that there is a strong correlation. This is because A-level Maths basically starts with a quick review of grade 8/9 GCSE algebra content and then gets more difficult. Students starting with a 7 will have to work very hard to keep up, students with a 6 often flounder.

There are sixth forms and colleges that will accept students with a 6 onto A-level maths, but from many years of experience, this is not a good experience for the student. Many will drop out and switch courses early on (and therefore not appear in the results table), but some will struggle on for 2 years and then come out with a grade that really doesn't help them with university applications.

If you take A-level maths with a 6, even if you manage to complete the course (and a lot won't), about three quarters will get a D or below, with E the most common grade.

This data is from 2019 because obviously more recent data has been screwed up by covid.

If your child is keen to do maths, but gets a 6, please consider Core Maths which is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and provides supportive maths content for A-level sciences and social sciences (e.g. psychology, geography).

If your child is going to do A-level maths (particularly if they are on a 7 but also 8/9), check that they have done summer bridging work so they hit the ground running in September.

another data set from 2020-2022: https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/707601-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level-2020-2022.pdf
In general, the trend is to score roughly 2 grades lower at A level than at GCSE in maths, so e.g. for those with a 7 at GCSE there was a 56% chance of getting a C or above.

Is there any data for DCs doing the Additional Maths GCSE? In the grammars my DC attend/attended typically top 3 sets aiming for A level Maths and Further Maths were advised to do AdMaths as a stepping stone. I hear from friends in selective independents that that is the case there too. Are DCs only doing the standard GCSE at a disadvantage even if they get a 9?

We still do that here in Wales 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

@noblegiraffe sorry to come back to this thread but my duaghters choosing her A level options at the moment and I wondered if she could have your (and anyone else's advice!)

She's at a Grammar school and wants to do chemistry physics maths. Or possibly swap one for psychology.

She's excited by the idea of a clinical scientist job or something like radiology or possibly psychology. But she'd like to get good grades and to her go to a "good" uni. I've tried to temper expectations a bit but she's surrounded by high flyers at grammar.

She's just got a couple of marks off an 8 in her maths mock and is a bit disappointed. Would she still be okay to aim for maths A level so you think? Also don't know if you know but she wants to do physics and likes that it goes with maths but so many 6th formers are telling her physics is hard and people drop out...

Its so hard at 15 to decide but just thought I'd ask you if it's okay if this sort of mock would be "worrying" for a high flyer or okay for maths... We could have psych as backup if she doesnt score well for gcse but she was hoping to keep maths for the science!

A high 7 at this point in the year should easily be able to turn that into an 8 at GCSE so would be fine for taking A-level maths. Physics is hard (as is maths) and people do drop out, but that doesn't mean that she won't enjoy it or do well in it, particularly as she is focused on a science career.

Thankyou so much noble. I've always appreciated tour threads and it's amazing to have reassurance from someone I "trust"!

Hi @FriendlyRobin I can only say from my experience that my DS16 finds maths and physics kind of straightforward, as much as that's possible! But bearing that in mind, and how capable he is, he is finding chemistry reeeeaaally hard. (I don't know why there's a weird tag at the end of this but I can't get rid of it!) @robi

That's really interesting. I think chemistry is her favourite subject of the 3 but I have warned her that the leap to A level is huge and she'll really have to work if she wants good grades whatever she does. I think the downfall of a lot of grammar kids is so much comes easily to them at gcse that it's a shock at A level when they properly have to graft.

I think she may find history/psychology easier to get good grades in at A level but if she's genuinely excited by science and numbers I dont want to stop that as it keeps more doors open.

Some people don't find the STEM subjects that hard at A level though and fly when they're liberated from the other subjects. Whether that applies to your DD I don't know, of course @FriendlyRobin, it may not , but I do wonder how many (girls in particular perhaps) are put off physics because they're told it's hard.

Also, having to learn to work rather than wing it can stand them in good stead for uni.

Oh yes I'm all for them working at A level. I just wondered if it's where some of the "it's hard" comments from the older years are coming from

Good point about being liberated from other subjects. She's finding 10 a lot and just turned down doing further maths (after much anxiety about doing so) as she is worried about managing it on top of her 10.

My son (Y13) wanted to take maths A-level. He got a 6 so wasn't allowed, so did core maths and got an A which we were thrilled with.
I think he would have struggled with the actual A-level so it worked out as well as it could have really. And because he couldn't take maths, he had to pick another subject - ended up taking finance - turns out he both likes it, and is good at it even though he hadn't previously considered it. Win win!

@FriendlyRobin - I think your DD sounds like she will be OK to do those 3 subjects at A level. They need to do what they enjoy and are passionate about.

Some girls get very worked up about the mocks, because they are so conscientious. I think they can get nervous in the exams - in Maths/Physics in particular, you have to think clearly all the way through the exam.

Re Further Maths/Ad Maths - I think it is worth doing for those getting 80% plus in mocks at this stage and a 9, because they need the further challenge in maths. For them it will be good prep for A level and Further Maths A level. However, it is better to focus on really doing your best in the standard GCSE - so I think that giving it up is a good move. It is not necessary, in fact, many Sixth Forms do not even take it into account on entry. So it is more of an extension for those who seek that additional challenge who may otherwise find the standard GCSE quite boring. Some of my DCs friends were getting 100% in their mocks at this stage, so for them it is a no brainer to do the Further Maths or Ad Maths (whichever one their school offers them).

Also very important to bear in mind that GCSEs are a marathon and not a race. It is early stage now and they need to keep their motivation and energy up until June and not burn out or be too hard on themselves.

@Araminta1003 Do you think the exam is worth doing, or just studying the course? Asking because I have always struggled to see the benefit of doing the extra (and hard) exam on top of the general revision load for GCSE. I absolutely see the benefit of studying the content, but wondering if I'm missing something and having the qualification itself is of value in some way as opposed to having more time during exam season to focus on other subjects.

DD is doing 10 GCSEs, and will be offered FM (which will take it to 11) - she's in year 10 so school says hard to be sure what her prediction will be for GCSE Maths (they haven't started testing the level 8/9 content yet) but realistically no reason she wouldn't be capable of a 9. School has said she can go to the classes but not take the exam and I'm thinking doing the exam(s?) would just add additional stress at an already stressful time.

One change I find really interesting is eons ago when I was at school, basically no one did FM A-level as one of three a-levels. That seems to have entirely changed now but I worry that it means that students studying A-level FM no longer have the option to drop it. I did A-level FM and it was hard. I did get an A (when that was the top grade) but I had to work for it in a way I didn't have to for the rest of my a-levels. I honestly walked an A* at GCSE. The jump from GCSE to A-level maths is still one of the hardest academic leaps I've ever done and (noting this comment is late now so this is one for next year!), really urge people encourage their kids to do transition work.

@majesticallyopposite - I am not sure because in the schools my DC attended it is simply normal to do it if in the top set in Maths. So most of the kids are competitive and want to do it. Some are already thinking ahead to Maths step papers, for example. And are comfortably achieving high grades in most other subjects. I think the way different schools approach this really varies. Some go with what the child wants, others are more focussed on achieving as many high grades as possible across all subjects taken.
If your DC wants to study Maths at uni, and knows which target unis already, perhaps ask them if relevant for their type school and background.

Or if they may want to change school for Sixth Form, look at the entrance criteria. For example, for some it is only top 8 subject points included.
It is very difficult to comment in a vacuum. I would be child led primarily. It can be difficult to tell in Year 10 how they will be coping half way through Year 11 with the whole work load. Especially content heavy subjects like history and the 3 sciences.

I'm curious about how well a maths 'mock' at this stage maps to final grade - IME so much of the prep for maths exams is doing the past papers after completing the content.

Re gcse fm - perhaps doing the exam and getting the grade may be more valuable to someone who is much stronger on stem than the other subjects than it is to an all-rounder? If they end up aiming for one of the (few) unis where GCSEs figure in the selection process I suppose it might make a difference?

I think the problem I see if that even if you are very strong at maths, I don't think anyone is ever guaranteed a 9 at FM GCSE. I'm concerned about an 8 (or lower) coming across as a negative for university applications, whereas if they don't take it at all, no university knows it was even an option. Eg if you want to do maths at university and you have a 9 at GCSE, and a 7 at GCSE FM, will a university look at that and question whether an A* prediction at Alevel FM is over optimistic (because that candidate should have found GCSE FM easy).

IDK, but I can't imagine an 8 being viewed negatively - afaik unis don't really distinguish between 8 and 9 anyway. It'd show the applicant was into maths at that stage. Also, I'd guess there's a bit of extra variability on fm grades because the amount of teaching for it isn't uniform.

To be sure if an extra maths exam is a source of stress liable to impact other subjects then probably bad idea. The types I'm thinking it's more likely to benefit may even quite enjoy it.

I think my duaghter would enjoy it if she wasn't giving up a lunch time and an after school session as it is in our school. It also starts now just after mocks and runs between now and exams. She's ND and needs the down time as down time, especially after am the heightened stress around mocks. I'm sure if it was part of the course or she wasn't doing 10 already she'd do it.

She would like doing the actual maths so she has suggetaed she works through it in the summer between gcse and A level.

Reducing down to 3 is very hard at 15! And yes doing 4 with an option to drop would work well...

Her idea does sound like it'd suit her better.
Tbh the way her school is doing it seems a bit odd to me (maybe it's not, I'm not an expert!) - iirc DDs school did it over a longer period just one twilight class a week, they let anyone in the top two or three sets try it and drop out if they didn't take to it.

Yeah for DD the work is in class - the top set seems to get accelerated through the standard GCSE curriculum. So in theory she can do the content, but not the exam. Not sure how it works if I say she doesn't want to do it at all - potentially has to go down a set. I'm sure she'll involve the content but doubt she'll enjoy having to revise for and take another exam! So far I haven't found any benefit to her of taking the exam, so I'm minded to say she does the course but doesn't sit the exam.

Just having a quick skim read - is core maths only available in England?

DD predicted 8/9 in maths, has always been top set throughout school but is worried about a level as has found it harder to wrap her around some concepts this year

Interesting discussion about FM GCSE. If it helps anyone, DD2 did this, and did Statistics GCSE too (so has 3x maths GCSEs). She knew she didn't want to take maths at A level but did want to do 3x science subjects and felt that having maths slightly beyond normal GCSE might be useful both for her university application and for the broader knowledge in itself.

In our school the top 2 sets sat maths GCSE in June of year 10 and November of year 11 leaving plenty of time to cover additional maths after that to sit in June of year 11.

DS got all A*s and a distinction in additional maths and has said it’s made the transition to a level maths pretty easy as there’s been a fair bit of overlap so far.

Interesting how the schools all do it differently!