Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

[noblegiraffe]

GCSE results day and therefore A-level sign-up day is coming.

So with that in mind I just thought I'd post the table of conversions from GCSE to A-level results for maths to show that there is a strong correlation. This is because A-level Maths basically starts with a quick review of grade 8/9 GCSE algebra content and then gets more difficult. Students starting with a 7 will have to work very hard to keep up, students with a 6 often flounder.

There are sixth forms and colleges that will accept students with a 6 onto A-level maths, but from many years of experience, this is not a good experience for the student. Many will drop out and switch courses early on (and therefore not appear in the results table), but some will struggle on for 2 years and then come out with a grade that really doesn't help them with university applications.

If you take A-level maths with a 6, even if you manage to complete the course (and a lot won't), about three quarters will get a D or below, with E the most common grade.

This data is from 2019 because obviously more recent data has been screwed up by covid.

If your child is keen to do maths, but gets a 6, please consider Core Maths which is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and provides supportive maths content for A-level sciences and social sciences (e.g. psychology, geography).

If your child is going to do A-level maths (particularly if they are on a 7 but also 8/9), check that they have done summer bridging work so they hit the ground running in September.

Using the A ⭐️ to represent A star is a great idea but why is it appearing as a subscript in @ErrolTheDragon 's post?

Was she predicted higher grades than that? Being disappointed in those grades seems mad otherwise!

Girls can lack confidence in their abilities, particularly in maths. She hasn't ruined her chances, she's given herself an excellent starting position.

Has her school set any bridging work for the holidays? Brushing up on her skills before term starts might remind her that actually she's really good at this stuff.

It’s a sign I’ve been interested in education threads far too long!

@RatherBeOnVacation this doesn't answer your question, but here's a thread from last year which has some anecdotes that may help a bit. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5143674-maths-a-level-without-gcse-further-maths .

Maybe assure her that once she is in the classroom and doing the work, that actual experience her brain has will supersede the worry. At the moment her brain is fizzing away speculating to fill the yawning void of not knowing what it feels like to be an A level student, and it's grabbing onto anything negative. There is probably no statistical significance in the difference between a high 8 and a low 9 anyway. They have to draw the boundary somewhere but if this year's students had sat last year's paper, or next year's, some of the high 8s would be low 9s and vice versa. I'm not sure it's helpful to feed the whole 8/9 thing though, I might be more inclined to just go with this is what your brain is doing, it evolved to keep you safe but is in overdrive etc.

@ErrolTheDragon Loving the solution to the A⭐typing problem too. I hope it catches on!

Thank you all. I think she’s feeling a little “off” as she was predicted an 8/9 in English Language, felt the paper went really well and just scraped a 6. Got a 7 in Computer Science - aced the programming paper but the other one let her down.

She knew she wasn’t getting her predicted 9 in maths after paper 2 but she got a high 8. All her 8s were high 8s but we’re not going for remarks. I think it’s best to just accept and move on.

She was predicted all 8s and 9s and a 7 in drama. She got a 9 in drama in the end 😂😂

So a bit of a mixed bag vs predicted grades. I think she feels she “sacrificed” the top grades in some subjects to ensure she got better grades in her weaker subjects.

She has a great work ethic though and her maths teacher thinks she’s a natural mathematician so I just don’t think she should be feeling as worried as she is. She also tends to get the hard stuff right and make silly mistakes on the easy stuff. That’s much more “fixable”.

I'm wondering if part of the problem is that there is such a move away from humanities on some level that kids are no longer encouraged to follow their strengths when choosing A Level subjects.

Thank you all. I think she’s feeling a little “off” as she was predicted an 8/9 in English Language, felt the paper went really well and just scraped a 6. Got a 7 in Computer Science - aced the programming paper but the other one let her down.

She knew she wasn’t getting her predicted 9 in maths after paper 2 but she got a high 8. All her 8s were high 8s but we’re not going for remarks. I think it’s best to just accept and move on.

She was predicted all 8s and 9s and a 7 in drama. She got a 9 in drama in the end 😂😂

So a bit of a mixed bag vs predicted grades. I think she feels she “sacrificed” the top grades in some subjects to ensure she got better grades in her weaker subjects.

She has a great work ethic though and her maths teacher thinks she’s a natural mathematician so I just don’t think she should be feeling as worried as she is. She also tends to get the hard stuff right and make silly mistakes on the easy stuff. That’s much more “fixable”.

I do want to say that getting all As and A stars (plus one erroneous 6) is an amazing achievement when you’re not a natural all rounder. I really think she’ll come into her own when she follows a much narrower programme of studies in the sixth form.

Depending on exam board, A-level biology is only about 10% maths- for those who get about a grade 6, the maths is usually doable and achievable, there's not necessarily a major advantage to having a 9. The questions are worded in a much more precise way than GCSE, and for AQA at least, there is also a 25 mark essay- so strong English skills may be more important.

I also agree that there's so much content that it's super important to have the skills to revise and work hard for pretty much any A-level, but certainly for A-level Bio, there is a lot you need to remember and then apply and have good evaluative skills too.

Around me, I know a lot of sixth forms ask for a 6 in English in order to do A-level Bio (and psychology etc)- those with lower English grades often struggle with the way the questions are worded and expressing their answers in the way that's needed to get top marks. I'm sure there are students with lower English grades who can manage this, but I'd say that students who find English a challenge will likely find it difficult to access aspects of an A-level Biology paper and answer the questions well! This isn't to say they are bad biologists, but to pick up top marks, they have to be able to understand the questions and communicate their answers well.

We have students who come in at about the 6-6 level who end up with D grades in biology, obviously I'd expect a student with 9s to do a lot better, but if the English grade wasn't there, I can see why they'd struggle. In other subjects, those Grade 6 students do seem to do a lot better- but there's less content- we are still teaching at Easter of Y13 (also have to fit in the practical endorsement which doesn't help) whereas some colleagues have been revising in class for about a month at that point.

My DD got 9’s in Maths & Further Maths (over 90% in both).
However she was in the B set at her private school where some FM content was taught and she had to learn the rest herself and chose to sit FM. In Yr 7, she was moved up to the A set but found the pace too fast, didn’t say anything and ended up with gaps in her knowledge and was moved back down where the pace suited her more. She worked really hard to fill those gaps and achieve what she did, with some additional support from home.

She was considering FM at A level alongside definitely doing Maths. However the school have convinced her not to do it, making her worried about the pace of learning as only a handful of students do FM A level and they tend to be the top of the A sets who can work at a faster pace.

I personally think she has the ability, but am concerned that I don’t want her to feel like I’m pushing her to do it. I also don’t want my annoyance at the school’s attitude (I feel they should have said ‘don’t worry, we will support you if you find the pace too fast’) to cloud judgement here. Maybe they are right?

I’d be grateful for your thoughts!

One would think getting 9 in maths and further maths at gcse would make her a good candidate for both maths A levels.
My ds got 8 in gcse and 9 in further. He is looking at maths (not further) as an A level if his sixth form lets him. Finds out today...
He doesn't want to do further as other subjects he likes plus although good at maths thinks further would be too much maths for him.

Too add ...maths would be a fourth A level if allowed. As his sixth form insist on EPQ they may say no to him plus maybe timetable issues round his other subjects.

@Furthermths a kid who got over 90% in maths and FM is an obvious candidate for FM A-level and it's a real shame in particular that they are putting off a girl from taking it. If they aren't confident that they can teach her, then there's something up with their teaching of the course.

How do they teach it? Is it not timetabled as a full A-level? I think some schools don't allocated it full teaching hours which isn't great.

She should certainly be offered the opportunity to sit it as a fourth with the option of dropping it if she can't cope.

@Furthermths i think that’s appalling. Particularly in a private setting where small class sizes and catering to the needs of each pupil is lauded. It’s the same curriculum as for every other school taking it (slight variability between exam boards I expect) so why does the pace need to be so fast?

What does your dd want to do after sixth form? If FM will be needed / an advantage I would definitely be pushing school more.

I think the English system of forcing specialisation at 16 is to blame for this. A broader education for longer, like happens in most other education systems but particularly in Scottish Highers and the IB, would make more sense for the modern world (and I don't know why England got rid of AS levels) and keep doors open for longer. It would require University reform as well though so I can't see it happening.

Thanks for your replies. At DD’s school you have to start with four A levels and can drop one if it’s too much (most do all four).
The main reason to consider FM was some economics courses require it (plus she actually enjoys Maths too, more than the other option of Geography). But as A level economics is a new subject for her, it’s speculation as to whether she may want to go down that route for her degree.

The school’s attitude was ‘well if you are worried about the maths being too hard for FM A level, those particular degree courses are even more Maths heavy and everyone they admit will be working at the faster pace of learning and understanding. Plus there are lots of great economics courses that don’t require FM.’

My DD lacks confidence already so she has decided the school is right which now puts us in a difficult position. Realistically, if we go into the school and discuss how they should be more supportive and it all goes wrong, our DD will definitely blame us for interfering!

core maths is great, A level statistics is also a good option if it’s offered locally

but just to be controversial - for some people a D in maths might be a positive achievement, there a mathsy degrees that you can do with a C. We should’mt disregard any A Level grade below a B

I still think very odd that a double 9 maths student is being put off further maths...

That's incredible they managed it after a term of missed work! How on earth did they manage that. They must've worked non stop.
Tbh I think it depends what they're strong in, if algebra is a strength they have a much higher chance of doing well than a child who got a 9 but struggles with algebra.

Trouble is, @Furthermths, it sounds like the worry about the maths being too much comes entirely from them.

Only 20ish % of Level 2 Further Maths are awarded at grade 9. That puts her in the top 20% of a cohort drawn largely from top sets.

However she is clearly at an extremely competitive school. I imagine it has a stunning % of A stars and this kind of gatekeeping is part of how they do it. There will be plenty of schools and colleges who would welcome your daughter with open arms - at ours, even if she wanted to just do 3 they would probably be trying to talk her into trying FM too. They would hear her story about teaching herself the material and tell her that is even more impressive, a student with that attitude is v welcome in their class etc. 9s at Maths and FM would be indisputable evidence of her suitability.

However she is where she is. FM at her school will almost certainly move quicker and be more demanding than at a school that will take anyone with an 8 in GCSE maths and no Level 2 FM. I can't help thinking she would find the latter more confidence building and supportive. But as it is, I think pushing for her to start it sounds like the right move. In the world outside her bubble SO many students do well with 3 A levels. There's nothing lost if she ends up doing 3. And it is still the case that FM is a relatively "smaller" 4th A level than some others. If she has to start with 4 then why not FM?

@Furthermths I agree with others, 9s at maths and GCSE FM surely make her an ideal candidate for FM A level. If she has to start with four then it sounds perfect. She can drop it if it doesn’t work for her.

But really a private school should be happy to support someone who is obviously an able and hardworking student.

And while econ courses in general will not specify FM, in practice many of the best ones are looking for it (or a reason why not – such as “my school doesn’t offer it”). If she is gaining 9s in maths GCSE she is a high-achieving student and would probs be looking at those unis for econ or other mathsy subjects (I am thinking LSE, Imperial, UCL, Leeds, Warwick, even if not Ox and Cambs). Economics is very competitive and FM will give her an edge. I would talk to her and suggest she speaks to the school again.

Btw there is no benefit at all in taking four A levels. It’s common if taking FM for sure as if you don’t do four you are mega specialising, but otherwise all it does is spread yourself too thinly.

Is this issue of ‘pace’ something that’s specifically in relation to her learning of maths concepts or was it more across the board? If the latter then being freed of other gcse subjects may make quite a difference.
The school may possibly have a point re her uni aspirations if she finds a lot of hard new content overwhelming but I think they’ve got their logic wrong. If she is likely to do a mathsy course even other than the oxbridge/‘top London’ cluster, then she’ll find it easier to cope if she has done fm maths at school rather than finding there’s some concepts others are very familiar with that she’s having to play catch-up on, with less support. When choosing her A levels, my budding engineer DD emailed a few admissions tutors for advice, for courses with a bit of a range of tariffs none of which required FM, some didn’t even say ‘desirable’. Without exception, they recommended she took it so that she could hit the ground running.

The further maths sets in the top grammar and top private schools are incredibly competitive and filled with kids who already know the content and have tutors on top, sometimes weekly/all holidays. That is why it sometimes is difficult for even high achieving kids. The teachers probably know this. I think that is what they mean by PACE. They are teaching a cohort aiming for international maths Olympiads and Cambridge STEP papers etc, and a lot of the content is already known to that kind of cohort.
DD also wanted to do FM and has the 9s, but the grammar she is going to has already filled their FM with existing cohort. This happens every year, both Chemistry and FM are full. I do think if I were paying for school I would simply insist that they do what your child wants, at least initially, and support.

@Araminta1003 our local selective 6th form (similar to Brampton manor- Very academic mostly low income intake) complete the A Level Maths curriculum by Easter of Y12 and just do past papers and revision from then on, as well as FM content to strengthen knowledge on the more difficult questions. The pace in which these kids are able to learn and cover content is incredible.

@Foxesandsquirrels - is it London? The thing is “low income” immigrant intake is often very supported at home and just because it is a low income household, does not mean dad/mum does not have a PhD/maths/physics etc etc degree from a university in eg Turkey, Syria, India etc. etc. So low income without parental educational level does not always tell the full story. There are genuine cases of children from poorer backgrounds who are geniuses despite low parental IQ/low expectation etc, but it is rarer. I do not know what it is about London but both expectations and ambition for the DCs, regardless of household income, seems to generally be quite high. Perhaps because it is so obvious that good grades can get you out of poverty and into local high paying jobs.

@Furthermths I am appalled by a private school that won’t let a double grade 9 student do FM. I posted earlier in the thread about my DD “only” getting an 8 (she was predicted a 9 and is usually a consistent grade 9 student).

Her school doesn’t offer FM GCSE so everyone is starting from a much lower point. They still have children go on to get A stars in FM. They also have several sets for regular maths based on pace of learning. They all get there in the end and girls in the lower sets also go onto get the highest grades.

It sounds like her school is one that works out what the child can do for the school and not what the school can do for the child……