Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

[noblegiraffe]

GCSE results day and therefore A-level sign-up day is coming.

So with that in mind I just thought I'd post the table of conversions from GCSE to A-level results for maths to show that there is a strong correlation. This is because A-level Maths basically starts with a quick review of grade 8/9 GCSE algebra content and then gets more difficult. Students starting with a 7 will have to work very hard to keep up, students with a 6 often flounder.

There are sixth forms and colleges that will accept students with a 6 onto A-level maths, but from many years of experience, this is not a good experience for the student. Many will drop out and switch courses early on (and therefore not appear in the results table), but some will struggle on for 2 years and then come out with a grade that really doesn't help them with university applications.

If you take A-level maths with a 6, even if you manage to complete the course (and a lot won't), about three quarters will get a D or below, with E the most common grade.

This data is from 2019 because obviously more recent data has been screwed up by covid.

If your child is keen to do maths, but gets a 6, please consider Core Maths which is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and provides supportive maths content for A-level sciences and social sciences (e.g. psychology, geography).

If your child is going to do A-level maths (particularly if they are on a 7 but also 8/9), check that they have done summer bridging work so they hit the ground running in September.

I think the amount of content in A level maths gets a little overlooked as the focus is on the difficulty. I know someone who has taught both maths and psychology at A level for many years. They say the level of challenge and the amount of content is incomparable between the two.

@Hollyhedge, UKMT is a annual competition run by the Maths Trust. I would be surprised if your son wasn't aware of it. Good mathematicians will usually get a Gold (Bronze of Silver for lower scores) and score highly to enter into the next rounds. The follow on rounds are usually for gifted mathematicians who would not struggle with Alevel or FM A levels.

ALevel is different to GCSE, the content is more abstract which is why you need the "maths" brain. Maths A level is very popular but definitely worth looking into the course content and discuss with teachers at school.

Support for UKMT varies by school though. Some don't do it. Some get kids to sit it but do no prep for that style of question. And there are plenty of people who have done maths degrees who hated UKMT and didn't do well in it. Whilst there is clearly a high overlap between success in A level and success in UKMT I wouldn't want to scare people into thinking you need to be at Gold plus in order to have any chance at A level.

My 13 year old did it (to get out of a lesson) but didn't revise or look at the questions. She literally had no idea what she was going into. She seems good at maths so far but is only in Yr 8. She got a silver which I thought wasn't bad given she had not done anything for it.

Most of those with a 7 in ds's class are finding A level maths difficult. It's taking up a lot of their time.

His school either don’t do it or he doesn’t do it. I imagine some schools don’t and prob differ vastly in their approach and how many they put in etc He is in an inter city comp if that is relevant. I don’t think something which isn’t universally available would be a good gauge of suitability

@Hollyhedge I agree. My son is taking maths and FM a level having got a 9 at GCSE and has never sat any form of maths competition.

Almost 70 - 69 or 68? 4% is not 4 kids. Presumably those percentages are rounded up or down, 4% of 69 is 2.76 so presumably 3 students got less than a C. Which does seem like a reasonable if not stellar result.

Grade boundaries do vary between subjects - in 2023 DS1 got a 9 in Maths and required at least 90% of maximum marks (he was in the middle of the grade having missed out on 14 out of 28 marks over the minimum required for the grade. 9s in Sciences were all on marks between 70-80%.

Thanks. I did it roughly. So 3 children out of 70 off didn’t manage a C in a cohort requiring grade 7. It is an exceptional comp 6th form. Obviously we don’t know how many had 7,8,9

You also don't know how many didn't make it to the end of the course.

@noblegiraffe - how do we know if they will be good enough for Further Maths?
DD is predicted a 9 in GCSE Maths and has hardly but any effort in so far. However, school have insisted on OCR Ad Maths for top set and she is really having to work for that one (working very last minute). All the Sixth Forms we applied to just require a 9 for Further Maths A level. She is not sure she is good enough for Further Maths (her older siblings are gifted mathematicians so she thinks she is rubbish). She has applied to two schools doing IB Maths Analysis Higher, is that somehow half way between A level Maths and Further Maths? If so, that might suit her. I have tried to read up on the IB but not sure. I think standard A level Maths she will be fine with.
In addition, does there non verbal reasoning ability matter? DD claims she just cannot do shape stuff like her older siblings. She gets top scores in verbal realising on CAT4 type testing, but more like just top 25% in non verbal, sometimes even only top 30 per cent. She is scared of it.

Oops, sorry about the typos.
The question really is how much does innate non verbal reasoning ability matter in higher level Maths?

Yep. Dad's friend started 'A' levels maths with a 6 at GCSE. Lasted a few weeks then switched to Core Maths, which she really liked and did well in.

I got an A in maths at 'O' level though no way would have been able to do 'A' levels. Brain just isn't wired that way.

@Araminta1003 She's predicted a grade 9 - please don't overthink it! This is why it's usually started as a 4th A-level, if she really finds it's beyond her then she will have the option to drop it. I've got kids doing Further with a grade 8 and they're coping.

@Araminta1003 how long has the additional maths been taught for?
DS1 is currently planning on Maths and FM next year - likely from a 9 at GCSE. With our blessing he has withdrawn from further maths GCSE as the teaching time just wasnt there (30 hours teaching total for the GCSE). If it hasn't been given enough class time, it isn't really surprising she's struggling.

FWIW, his teacher is very keen on him doing FM. His highest UKMT certificate is a silver. His younger brother is the one who gets into the further rounds.

@DoublePeonies - I don’t actually know when they taught it but I think they started after the winter mocks so one term only. I think she is self teaching on savemyexams this week primarily, simply by doing past paper questions on the topics she doesn’t understand. I think she did get Gold on UKMT. The issue for us is she is aiming for a competitive boys grammar where there are loads of very competitive able boys so I am wondering if she should stay in her grammar (girls and mixed in Sixth Form but still more girls) or do IB at another girls grammar. I think she would be fine but is lacking confidence and does not like others being overly competitive. She is a very collaborative/team work person, very helpful and every single teacher has loved her. She is doing Physics and Economics as well just wondering whether FM, an MML or English lit as the 4th. She asked me this morning if I could pay for a CAT test to check her brain out! She thinks she just cannot see the shape stuff. I told her the brain keeps developing until 25…

@Araminta1003 OCR Ad Maths in a term sounds very stressful. I am not super familiar with the spec but our school switched from that to AQA Level 2 Further Maths because they thought it was more achievable in a short time. DS's maths teacher seemed to think the OCR one, though valuable, was substantially harder. Which makes it a substantial step up from GCSE.

Hopefully if the whole class is doing it, some of the material might have been covered in class anyway - I know my son's teachers were cracking out the A level text books occasionally in Y9. So hopefully they are just topping up. But not, it's a lot.

Either way it sounds like it's shredding her confidence. I'd be tempted to say drop it, let her learn these more advanced concepts in slower time with her A level teacher. That will be a far more solid basis for her further studies than trying to teach it to herself on a deadline, and scaring herself. This reminds me of going into top set Latin when I was at school - I went from understanding everything to being completely out of my depth, and I quit. I expect had I stayed in second set I'd have done well. Confidence and pace makes a huge difference.

Thank you @Kalara

I think set 2 and 3 in DD’s school are doing the AQA Level 2 Further Maths and only set 1 is doing this one. She does not want to drop it, as she feels she has done some work now. The issue, I think, is that you have to disclose all your results on UCAS. Although she is a high achiever, she similarly has zero interest in the very elite universities like Oxford and Cambridge, so hopefully she will be OK even if she gets a poor result on just this one. Life lesson will be learnt. I think some of her classmates have now resorted to tutors for this one subject. Too late for us, normally older siblings would help, but they are also really busy right now.
I cannot remember much secondary school Maths, sadly!
DD definitely much prefers being at the top, comfortably, than second best. At least, it gives us a good steer for what type of university to pick. And perhaps even what type of career.

For those targeting a 7 in Maths, they would probably do much better in a different A Level. It isn’t uncommon for students like this to get a D in Maths A Level and get Bs in their other subjects. They could have 3 Bs by picking differently.

For those who get GCSE grades 5 and 6, BTECs or a mix of Btec and one or two A Levels (not maths) is usually a better option than 3 A Levels.

Interesting thread! Following for dd in y10.

My DD’s school had their strongest students in maths take their GCSE a year early, and then did Add Maths the following year.

I was s little uncertain, but she got a 9 in Maths, and then an A in Add Maths, and now seems well prepared for Further Maths.

I appreciate that students and parents can only take their GCSE strategy their particular school offers, but this set up has worked well for my DD.

I found out that cross subject data is being released for 21-23 v soon. This is the first time a clear picture will be given with reformed GCSEs/ A level grades back to pretty much expected levels post-Covid. When it appears will start a new thread as there is a lot of interest and think important to look across subjects, not just maths…

Thing is though at least 25% of them still get .B+. So it’s a tough call if you have a DC v keen to do it! It does depend as well, tutoring is rife, private schools have much smaller classes, schools have v varying results - there are 7,8s and 9s and 7s, 8s and 9s…For my DC, on a 7, adamant what he wants to do going to see about 4 subjects so he could possibly drop if he wants to.

@noblegiraffe
I was wondering if there is a similar graph comparing GCSEs and A-level results say for last year (GCSEs 2022, A-levels 2024)? Even better if this year, but it's probably far too early.

My ds was one who went from 7 to an A, but it took huge amount of work. He was looking like D/E at the February mocks and even up to about Easter he was only scoring 15-35% then suddenly he made a jump and even scored 80% on paper 1!
I'd like to show him how he'd beaten the odds! (he didn't work for GCSEs - when I asked him what he found the best revision method, he looked blank and said he didn't!)

I know you asked @noblegiraffe but it has been drawn to my attention that a maths account on twitter is asking people to send in grades and scores from 2023 GCSE and 2025 A level, for Edexcel, to compile a new table shortly.

https://x.com/themathsbazaar/status/1955657724014076281?t=eMPAV6dd4cIJHckwV1Wj4Q&s=19