Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

[noblegiraffe]

GCSE results day and therefore A-level sign-up day is coming.

So with that in mind I just thought I'd post the table of conversions from GCSE to A-level results for maths to show that there is a strong correlation. This is because A-level Maths basically starts with a quick review of grade 8/9 GCSE algebra content and then gets more difficult. Students starting with a 7 will have to work very hard to keep up, students with a 6 often flounder.

There are sixth forms and colleges that will accept students with a 6 onto A-level maths, but from many years of experience, this is not a good experience for the student. Many will drop out and switch courses early on (and therefore not appear in the results table), but some will struggle on for 2 years and then come out with a grade that really doesn't help them with university applications.

If you take A-level maths with a 6, even if you manage to complete the course (and a lot won't), about three quarters will get a D or below, with E the most common grade.

This data is from 2019 because obviously more recent data has been screwed up by covid.

If your child is keen to do maths, but gets a 6, please consider Core Maths which is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and provides supportive maths content for A-level sciences and social sciences (e.g. psychology, geography).

If your child is going to do A-level maths (particularly if they are on a 7 but also 8/9), check that they have done summer bridging work so they hit the ground running in September.

I can see why people want to analyse this information and come up with common outcomes based on what GCSE grades they attained etc. My concern is how do parents and schools decide who might be the exception and manage to attain a grade greater than what is common for someone going into that subject with a particular GCSE grade before they start the course etc. Perhaps if we returned to the module system we had in the 2000s. Then students could start with 3/4 A levels and drop one at AS level at the end of the first year etc. The system was much more flexible back then.

Also I worry this may result in teachers having certain expectations of their pupils based on their GCSE results - that results in self fulfilling prophecy.

My subject is MFL so I can speak confidently about it. To start the A level MFL course where it starts a student needs to have confident mastery of verbs and tenses, the range of GCSE vocab, the basics of the grammar and structure of the language. If they have these they should gain a 7+ at GCSE (assuming ofc no outside disasters liker missing out a writing question – which a teacher who knows the student will allow for).

If they do not gain a 7+ at GCSE (and there is nothing wrong with lower grades), then they simply do not have the basic knowledge assumed by the A level course. A level teachers have a lot to get through (there is a huge amount of content in the MFL course) and they cannot spend lesson time revising irregular verbs.

DS2 who is a smart lad did very little work for his Spanish GCSE, got a 6 – totally fine. The idea that he would have been a suitable candidate for A level is nonsensical tbh – I know that he just did not have the knowledge and skills needed. As the 6 evidenced.

@privatenonamegiven I think some parents and children need to ask the question of if this child comes in on grade X what is the likely outcome for A level? Plus what are the outliers both high and low? My children's sixth form only asks a grade 6 for maths A level and a 7 for further maths. The entry grades are 5 x grade 4s including maths and English.

However, there is a real motivational push to get a child to increase their personal grade profile. They gain points for being part of he college community, sports, music, clubs, staying in college for their free periods and studying, utilising the teaching staff who are always available in a certain time slot at the end of the day etc. These points earn them actual prizes, not a raffle. Literally a display case with points on vouchers for different places, basketballs, bluetooth speakers, board games, aftershave, art supplies, Nintendo Switch even a PS5. They know that this is what motivates a lot of students, tangible things they can get their hands on which in turn will help them post further education. There are two streams, going to uni and working/apprenticeships and they are well supported in both streams. Luckily, in that college they are not limited by their GCSE grades.

Both my children did maths and further maths A level but came in on mid grade 9s for maths and got A stars. However, I knew about the maths grades because of the postings by @noblegiraffe over the years which helped me see it pre GCSE for my eldest. I had also looked up the Cambridge Assessment tables showing grade progression.

@clary if they need an A grade at GCSE to access the A level, then maybe there is something wrong with the A level course...No wonder MFL are in decline post GCSE..

I actually think the A level course is great. But it would not have been a good destination for DS2, even tho he is able, as he was not interested enough to do the work.

I think A levels are rightly aimed high. Do you think that about maths as well out of interest? And FM?

If a candidate was gaining a 5 or 6 at GCSE that would indicate a lot of gaps in their knowledge of the language. Last year in AQA French you needed about 63% to get a 7. So your 5 or 6 grade would mean you dropped at least a third of the marks. At least a third of the knowledge was missing.

It would be great for that candidate to aim to continue their study of French or German. But I think a route at a similar level to GCSE would be better. Refining and improving their basic communication in the language rather than reading French literature and talking about political themes.

What’s your job out of interest @Hellodarknessmyoldfrien ?

Possibly where IB comes into its own allowing children to continue a language with a 5 but to a mid GCSE/ A level standard

it is a shame to say you need a 7/ to be in top 20% to carry on.

@Hellodarknessmyoldfrien Why do you think you only got a 6 at GCSE if you were capable of doing so well at A level?

Great tip!

As a mathematician you will surely understand the phrase “anomalous result” though and going on those stats yours was one. The fact remains that for every “grade 5 or 6 student” like you who gets an A* at A level there are 20 who end up with a U. And that is a tragedy as that means that they have spent 2 years struggling and studying and ended up with nothing. I suspect it also doesn’t include the kids who started A level and gave up after 3 weeks or 3 months or a year.

Did you have a reason that you got a 6? (Illness, bad luck with a paper, total slacker?)

@Mumofteenandtween I just don't think you should tell young people that they're not capable of hard things. People have to chart their own course.

@clary yes I do think that about maths too.

@Hollyhedge yes the IB is a wonderful course having taught on this I would suggest this is much more favourable to A levels, as they currently are. Students being able to opt for SL or HL IS great.

But it is surely reasonable to point out when statistics indicate likelihood of success is low, and that hard work will be required to beat the statistics?

It may not help to tell some young people they're not capable of hard things.
But it also doesn't help them to let them go blindly onto courses that are likely to be too challenging with a high chance of getting an E/U.

But it is surely reasonable to point out when statistics indicate likelihood of success is low, and that hard work will be required to beat the statistics

Yes, but when does this feed into expectations of the young people concerned by the teachers and parents... I'm sure most teachers have heard of the Pygmalion effect.

Out of interest, which year did you do your GCSE maths in?

The first year of the new grades was 2017. You have had an impressive turnaround in 8 years, to get a*s in maths and further maths a-level, then do an undergraduate at Oxford and a post-graduate at Cambridge and then become a primary school teacher, get married, then become a lecturer in maths!

To get an a in further maths A-level you have to be very good at maths. The students I teach who are on track for a grade a at a-level further maths all got a grade 9 at GCSE, with a couple of exceptions who got high grade 8s.

I am basically astonished that someone got a grade 6 at GCSE maths and an A* at further maths a-level. Grade 6 at GCSE maths is somewhat weak and suggests you could not access the more tricky algebra parts of the GCSE…

No I have not said or implied that a 7 is a mediocre grade.

It kind of read like that to me but I accept you didn't intend it.

@Hellodarknessmyoldfrien how can you have been a teacher for ‘many many years’ if you got a numbered GCSE grade?

@Pythag gosh I have shared too much on Mumsnet! Must name change soon!
Fair enough, I got a B in maths GCSE, I just called it a 6 as that was what being discussed on this thread and when I googled what a B is nowadays it said 6.

Thanks. It still really depends upon which year you took your GCSE maths in, for the conversion If you got for example a grade B in 1990, that would be equivalent to a grade 7/8 now, given the grade inflation that was rampant in the 90s and 00s.

However, A stars in A/levels only came in in the year 2010. Did you actually get an A star in further maths? Which year? Or did you Google for that one too? Was it the new specification or the old one?

My son got an 8 for GCSE in 2024 (no extra time) time and is really struggling with A Level maths. I think we will have to find a tutor.

@Pythag I'd rather not share the years but you're welcome to pm me.
In fact, I think I'll ask for my posts to be removed as I'm obviously too outing.