Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

Your daughter isn’t taking anyone’s place. Your decision to send your children to private school was never altruistic. You didn’t do it so that some “poorer” child could go to an outstanding school. Every child has the right to a state education. You and your private school parent pals aren’t going to overwhelm all the outstanding schools out there (and besides outstanding schools are outstanding for a snapshot in time…)

@Zwicky

Yes but she is trying to frame it as though it’s the VAT increase that has forced her hand

When in reality it has not affected her at all!

The VAT will do nothing to help any part of your situation unfortunately. The most you might get is one extra teacher. If your local schools are “shit” then one extra teacher can’t turn that around.

Funny thread, well done OP. There’s no intrinsic advantage in private schools but you spend your money on them until you can’t because a small percentage increase means it’s better to live in a rich area and pretend to feel bad about stealing a good state school place.

How about this? Everyone goes to their local school, more or less purely based on catchment area, and the national government equalises - in the sense of makes fair based on circumstances - per-pupil funding based on average house prices/ council tax bands, so that people can’t buy an advantage. That would be fun, wouldn’t it?

I think the state should 100% subsidise private schools so that EVERY parent can send their kids there. They could do this by totally eliminating spending on state-funded education, cutting our taxes in the process too.

The VAT made her angry so she adjusted her behaviour. That’s the point. She can afford it, but she isn’t willing to hand her money over to the govt in the form of VAT on private.

Seconded. A good friend of mine is a successful IT consultant. His parents paid for his elder brother to go to private school, but not him. He still resents it. He's 56.

You don't give a shit about any child other than your own.

So stop pretending you do. It's the politics of dishonesty and just so transparent.

I don't pretend it's a simple issue. But it inequities exist that are directly to do with funding even if others exist that are not about school funding (but may be other funding, support, and opportunities for children and young adults paid for by taxes).

As it happens I don't fully support the VAT on private schools as a policy really, but posts like this where the OP is basically saying 'ha you povvos I can get round it anyway' and the constant harping about paying tax make me extremely angry. Particularly as lots of people have spent the last 15 years having their quality of life (that has nothing to do with winter holidays) chipped away until they are struggling to feed and clothe themselves.

I never had enough money to open a savings account for my child, in fact there were times when I only had enough money to feed them and could not afford to feed myself, and yes, I was working for the majority of their childhood. I had sleepless nights worrying about the bills, how the hell I was going to afford new shoes for them. In the whole of their childhood I managed to to get us away on a holiday about 7 or 8 times. Christmas used to make me feel ill with stress and sick with shame due to the worry over money. Thing is I have always worked, I returned to part time study when my child was older so my money worries did ease but even then I could only dream about the sort of problem you are describing. Just out of interest my child and all their peer group went to state schools and then went onto to uni and have reasonable jobs. State education is not the end of the world

Of course OP wasn't being altruistic, but the reality is that some real human child will now no longer be able to attend an oversubscribed school. You have no idea what alternatives the child that has missed out will have and whether they are anywhere near as good. I don't know why posters on this thread are so insistent that their isn't huge inequality in the state system that can literally make or break a child's education.

All children have a right to a state education but we really really don't want them all to attend a state school. This would be exorbinately expensive and cripple the education budget. If you think things are bad now, imagine 6% more kids being funded at £8k a year (more if SEN!). It's crazy to pretend that it isn't in every state educated child's interests for more not less kids to be educated privately.

I think we're all agreed that state provision must be dramatically improved.

If a tranche of pushy, education-focussed, motivated parents switch into the state sector (or eschew private from the outset) they can hopefully get their weight behind pushing for reform raising standards. That must be a good thing.

So hard on the families that are caught up in the fee hike though.

The thing is it wont though because the birth rate has massively dropped. Many outstanding and good primary schools are now not over subscribed anymore and it will only be a few years before this trickles through to the secondary schools. Schools need more children. Some will be at risk of closing without them. Our local primaries are only about 60-70% full this coming September. Many of them used to have waiting lists!

She’ll have over £100k in savings at 18 which we would have saved for her. Plus she’s in an outstanding school.

But that's brilliant isn't it?! WTF aren't you doing the same for your DS?

I don’t think she is pretending to give a shit about children other than her own. She’s just making the point that her dd has taken a place from another child - because she’s unwilling to pay VAT. She’s informing the internet than quite a few kids will not get places at their preferred state schools because kids like hers are applying for a place - because of the VAT policy. They would not have otherwise applied. They may apply because they can’t afford the VAT - or in OP’s case because they are angry about the VAT and refuse to pay it.

From my perspective as a state school teacher with DD in state school….

I actually agree that yes, initially, the places at ‘good’ schools will be harder to get because the parents of pupils who would go private will fight tooth and nail to ensure their children go to the best state schools. However the hope is, if more parents send their children to state schools then state education will improve overall.
While those in power can opt out, that will never happen. Same with the NHS.

I think it's great for state schools to be a real melting pot, a cross section of society. I'm all for greater diversity in them.

For me, this is a positive and with numbers of children going down the extra numbers will also be a win if it enables state schools to remain open.

She might be giving ds money out of her bank account. She hasn’t said she won’t give him money as well.

Ah say outstanding school again OP.

Ofsted reports mean fuck all. As you're going to find out. Enjoy your extra holiday. Bit of sun in winter does the world of good

mostly correct about the point - except I’m not angry! I’m pleased at discovering a nice, excellent local school and saving all the money to invest for my DD, plus going on holiday more often. I would have never even looked at state options without the VAT increase. If we didn’t get in to the good school we would have stayed in private school. However, another child, who might not have had another option lost out on a place. Is this really the outcome everyone who supports VAT on private schools wants?! My privileged, high earning family, with £20k more money to spend each year, while another child loses out on a place at an outstanding, lovely state school place? That’s some crazy ideology.

I read this post and thought ‘what a smug and mean spirited post’. It certainly was not a persuasive and articulate argument for keeping private/ public school fees VAT free. What on earth made you think readers will change their minds?

But it won’t improve overall. There will be great state schools which those in power will congregate around. And then there will be shit state schools, which those without power will go to. Inequality will prevail.

It would be presumptuous of me to tell you that nobody cares so I'll settle for telling you that no one I know cares. At all.

This is the danger though. Will you expect people like OP to care when a policy hurts you or others? You can guarantee she won’t.

Exactly this. Come on, you don’t think we are so stupid as to believe you are sending your kid to private school as a favour for the rest of us. Or do you… and we should tip our hats to you mi lud…..