Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

So OP is saying that due to the VAT on school fees she is going to take up a space in an outstanding state school for her child. One which another child could have taken and she will then use the money saved for an extra holiday.

She is doing this because she can and stating how this is maybe not so beneficial for the people in poverty.

So why does she need to get a grip exactly?

I've read it. I still agree with VAT.

Interesting, it appears to me that you have yanked your kids out of their private school due to an anti-tax, anti-contributing-to-society ideology. Then you are rubbing everyone's nose in how rich you still are. Well done sticking to your principles, I guess?

So your plan to improve education is to get the Labour government to force Tory voting parents to improve state schools through parental interest? You are effectively saying you don't trust labour to improve schools and think Tory parents should improve them?

I've got news for you. It doesn't work like that. If you want to improve your school ask questions (perhaps become a governor) - examples of questions might be - 1) Why the discipline isnt better 2) Why the kids are doing 50% of the hours of homework done at a grammar or private school?

How does removing and reducing choice from education help parents hold schools to account for failing their kids? It just gives more power to shit schools to fail children.

I agree with the policy. Your post hasn't changed my mind. Your DD is entitled to the state place and should have it. The tiny social benefit of the place going to another child if she didn't take it is very little picture. The big picture being that private education is a key contributor to social inequality and not something the government should be facilitating with tax exemptions.

Controversial opinion:

I'd be glad your child is going to state school. I hope it's the one my youngest child is going to and I hope they are in the same class. You clearly care about your child's education and we need more parents like that. There are so many parents in the area where I live that give zero fucks about their children's education and their children are badly behaved. I've done the best I can for them by going to church every week to get them in to a better school but compared to a few years ago (when my older children were starting) behaviour has gone down hill. Teachers are leaving in droves and state schools are pretty shit. I hope more parents like you take up the places (you'll be more likely to put more effort into getting your child in to a good school than the shitty parents) and it will improve teacher retention rates and my child will have a better school experience.

Obviously not so good for the children whose parents don't give a shit about them (or the parents & children that do care but have no decent schools in their area) but they usually end up with terrible ofsted, get taken over by an academy chain and loads of money pumped into them to improve it for a few years! Just a shame they don't keep up the cash flow really.

Ok no problem.
I still agree with VAT on school fees.

Send older one to free sixth form.
There's loads school capacity I. Manchester so a non issue.
Charity status was a loop hole

My School is technically big enough to have 2000 pupils. We have just over 1000 on roll.
We have plenty of space, not enough teachers, and high amounts of staff sickness and cover requirements. So yes, sadly despite our space, we have very big class sizes.

As for practical subjects, as a teacher who occasionally dabbles in this area, I’ll tell you what I got told when I raised this with my SLT.
It’s not law, it’s guidance.

You've managed to get your DD into a state school that's rated outstanding and apparently good academically and yet you want me to feel so horrified by this tragedy that I change my mind on whether businesses offering a service (an expensive service that few can afford which gives the buyers potentially life long benefits) should pay VAT like every other business?

I think I will reserve my horror for the children whose parents can't afford to feed them properly and who are stuck in schools rated as failing.

If, as so many on this thread claim, it is such an obvious move to add tax to private school fees why does no other country in the world do it? One tried and it was a disaster and they had to reverse the policy.

Is Labour right and the entire rest of the world wrong? That feels like an impossibly unlikely scenario to me.

I really don't understand all the handwringing about the child that has supposedly lost their place in an outstanding state school because of your decision.

You have said yourself that you live in a "good area" so said child is fairly likely to have educated and supportive parents - this is ultimately what makes the difference to children's outcomes far more than the choice of school. The displaced child's education won't end as a result of you taking up a state school place. They will just go to another school instead. And they will probably do just as well regardless. It really isn't the tragedy you seem to think it is.

Also, it really doesn't matter if the school isn't rated outstanding - you seem to be under the impression that an outstanding ofsted rating is the only marker of a good school, but that just suggests that you're actually too ill qualified to judge. In any case, some "outstanding" schools haven't even been inspected in the last decade.

I have no doubt that your daughter will be just fine at her state secondary. Your ds, on the other hand, may well end up with a massive chip on his shoulder about the fact that his future house deposit was blown on school fees while his sister got a massive handout. I think you really need to rethink this part of the plan tbh.

You haven’t taken anyone’s place.

I’ve read it. Still think VAT is a good idea.

And?

Private schools paying VAT is absolutely the right thing to do. Nothing in your posts comes close to even making me think twice about changing my views.

Yes, I still agree with VAT on private school fees.

And no story about how it affects an individual family is going to make me change my mind about a policy intended to bring about wide ranging shifts in the nation’s culture.

When we see the long term impact of fewer children going to private schools and whether or not that results in increased opportunity for the rest of society, I’ll have the basis for making a decision about whether or not it was a good move. Not until then, and certainly not on the basis that your DD will be bumping someone else “down” because she will be leaving her super privileged private school and going to a decent state school. Your DD is as entitled to a state school space as any other resident. The universality of the system is what makes it a vehicle for widespread opportunity.

Read it, still agree with it.

Your children aren't entitled to a private school place unless you can pay for it. They've had more private school education than my children have had - which is none as I can't afford to pay for it. So why should we feel bad for you and your kids?

As somebody who's never managed to send their kids to private school, and we have 5 jobs between me and my husband, I really struggle to work out which part of your story was meant to make me change my mind! Also as somebody working in education - your child isn't taking a space off anyone. They're providing the school with more funding!

I really can't understand the part where you say you want us to 'see the consequences'. You can't afford something any longer so you don't get it now. Where's the problem? We can't afford gymnastics classes for my youngest anymore so she can't go now. Shall we blame labour for that too?

My main takeaway from your OP is that you have excellent local state schools and have chosen to buy private education for your children.

I say this as someone who has chosen private schools for my DCs.

Private education is (in the most part, I recognise there are some exceptions) a luxury + probably deserve to be taxed as such. I would much rather that things be taxed indirectly than increasing income taxes.

Would I personally be better off if they didn’t impose the tax? Absolutely - but the blustering (and often pretty incoherent) outrage of the small number of people that it affects is absolutely mind numbing.

So the government needs to improve provision for those unable to attend mainstream schools. That needs funding but VAT on private schools is unlikely to raise that. Facing the fact that we may need to increase taxes in general (whether income and/or wealth tax) or borrow more is what the country needs to accept. We really need the economy to grow - increase in productivity - to start to make the sorts of investments our children deserve

If and it is a BIG IF, VAT on fees results in increased funds to support state schools, I would be in support of it but the current projections suggest it will not and if even 10% of parents go state that would have gone private - it becomes a net negative impact on state funding. What then?

We need to face the fact as a country that we need to increase funding for education. Your child should be able to go to a good school so you can work and improve your family's lot

OP's post fails to convince me about private education being given charitable status to dodge VAT.

Not being rated Outstanding doesn't necessarily mean that kids aren't getting a good education. All the state schools in the borough where I live have been rated at least Good, though many are now in financial crisis due to persistent underfunding by the coalition and Tory governments, and on my side of the borough there are high levels of deprivation, kids living in poverty - and the rest aren't necessarily well off - though there are also quite a lot of middle class families who can't afford to live in posher areas/areas that have benefited more from gentrification.

It is more difficult for schools even with brilliant teachers in deprived areas and with a high level of SEND to get Outstanding ratings in OFSTED, and there have been cases of ratings being used to put pressure on community schools here to academise, and to reward academy chains (including some schools gaming the system and in cases blatantly cheating - for example, bringing in MAT staff who are not those teaching day to day in the school to impress the inspectors.

I think a lot more kids would benefit from all their schools being able to recruit and retain good teachers with subject expertise across the curriculum, to good teaching being offered across years and not just those who are going to impress pushy parents with their grades, to schools not off-rolling students who bring down attainment or other measured assessment of schools' performance, etc.

So you're saying you were financially ready to make the jump from 20k a year to 40k for two kids, but now you'll be saving 16k a year instead?

My heart bleeds.

I think you may just be able to afford to pay for a few tutors and activities to make up for DD having to go to, shudder, mainstream! 🙄

I have a hunch.

that the OP is very much new money from a WC background, so bought into the private school thing to fit in with her new rich friends. Except that now the rich friends are not actually as rich as they made out, so are pulling their kids out of private school and the OP is doing the same, in order to fit in again. Because now she is in the fact the Rich Friend.

I suspect that the private school her son went to was non selective and will take any kid as long as ma and pa can pay the fees. More horse powers in the cars in the car park than IQ points in the parents heads......

Here's an idea @Sally20099 do what you actually think is best for your kids, and not about what you think your friends will judge you for. A good state that gives him the results he needs will be better for your sons sixth form than an under performing private.

Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

Ok. I still agree with VAT on businesses including private schools.

What now?

Why not boost the local economy spending some of your £12 k saving a year or donate 10% or the cost of your winter holiday to a local food bank?

I do think that your son is going to ask where his house deposit is in a few years, unless he begged and pleaded to go to the private school, when he sees his sister with her £100k.

It will take time for the changes to be felt. I still think it’s a good idea. Private schools are businesses.

l read this. I agree with VAT on private school fees.

I’ve read it and yes I still agree with VAT on school fees. The fact is you could afford it but chose not to to make some half arsed political point. Enjoy your extra winter holiday.