Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

You’re welcome. I’m quite angry about it. My kids never get a break. Your children do. But people are completely blinded to this unfairness.

I am not having a dig at you personally, but I just think this is not a well thought out idea.

I’ve read your post and still absolutely agree with VAT on private school fees. Of all the arguments I’ve heard this is the least compelling, and has been presented in a rather naive way.

Because she might have to sit next to kids who are poor.

Nothing you've said hasn't been said before and yes I wholeheartedly support the VAT on fees

Surprised you only have one outstanding school in your city. All of ours are outstanding in my town and they all have spaces.

VAT on school fees could raise less than half the sum expected:
HMRC analysis shows private pupils moving to state sector could punch hole in Labour tax-raising plan
https://archive.is/5h9AR

And I highly doubt that a parent who can't afford the VAT charge, would be as effective at lobbying the government for better state education as some people might like to think.

Hell, they could even set up a harassment campaign and that wouldn't magic up anymore money than there already is especially with the £20 billion blackhole that Labour's recently discovered.

DS is privately educated and university fees paid.
DD good state school and ski holiday for the family and may not have the grades her brother had because of large classes
Enjoy your skiing!

So it's just dawned on you what many families already knew @Sally20099, there are perfectly good state school options available.

Slow hand clap.

Why’s it a good thing for kids to be in socially segregated schools?

They are already.

Good schools in good areas.

Children who attend coaching lessons, learn piano, have French working Nanny’s, or traveling the world, there will still be a social divide:

Mixed schools over here, some teens are given £50K cars for their 16th whilst other queue for free school meals.

Some kids parents value education, others do not.

If you want schools to change you need parents engaged and encouraging good behavioir back schools.

Anything ‘free’ in the country is totally undervalued:

Im not sure why this is meant to change anyone’s mind. You obviously think private school is superior which is why both of your children are privately educated. You can afford the VAT but have instead chosen to throw a hissy fit and not continue your daughter’s private school education. This suggests you care more about proving a point than about providing your daughter with the same level of education you deemed necessary for your son. Is your son more worthy of the facilities at the private school than your daughter? She might not agree.

Is it meant to wind us common folk up that you will be able to save a large amount of money for your daughter than if she went to a private senior school? It will probably bother your son more than anybody when you hand over the money to your daughter. Maybe you should have sent your son to the outstanding senior school and saved up an equal amount of money for him.

If she got the place in the outstanding school it is because she is entitled to it by whatever criteria the school uses, no argument from anyone there.

TLDR: No, nothing you said has changed my mind.

Totally agree with VAT on private school fees. I'm not quite sure why you'd think I'd change my mind?

Nope you haven't convinced me and for you I don't feel any sympathy. Can you see my eyes rolling from here?!? Private schools are not charities and should pay vat.

If there was a vacancy at the local state school, you haven't taken anyone's place. They're probably delighted it's been filled so they get the funding attributable to your daughter.

The state doesn’t subsidise it

Every child is entitled to a place at State school. For most of us it's our only option. To send your child to private school is a choice, and to afford it you have to be earning a good wedge. Therefore, I have no sympathy if the fees go up by 20% because you chose to take this step for your child's education. You can still send your child to state school like most of us do, if you want.

Well, good for you with your £20k savings and extra winter holiday each year 🙄

You do realise that there are a lot of families who currently don't even earn 20k a year and who are eating from food banks and living in the worst damp, mould ridden accommodation.

So, no your smug post does not make me change my view on vat for private schools. It just makes me realise how oblivious the "rich" are to actual societal problems!

You haven’t changed my views @Sally20099, for three reasons:

1. in my view, politics isn’t about the specifics, it’s about the general. In general, private education is a luxury and should be treated the same way as any other luxury. There are nuances, of course, particularly around SEND, which should be addressed through legislation and through hardship funds, exemptions etc. But the general principle is a sound one and I support it.

2. totally take the point up-thread about unintended consequences in the immediate future, and I think that’s worrying. But for me, the future of a well-funded state education system is an exciting thing. All attempts to minimise disruption in the short-term should be made, and it’s important that politicians think creatively about this. But for me, it’s a sound long-term policy that is worth the short-term upheaval

3. the VAT thing is part of a series of measures to increase the support that state schools get, either directly or indirectly. Eg sorting out child poverty and homelessness will have an indirect increase on the quality of schools. Recruiting more teachers and paying them properly will too. It’s a sound measure both politically and practically and I support it.

I have sympathy with people who are only just managing - no-one likes upheaval and uncertainty and I hope it works out for people like you. But nothing you’ve said above makes me feel any differently about the merits of VAT on private education, and in fact, it reinforces my opinion

No, it’s not about envious people. Many of us genuinely disagree with such a system of educational inequality as this two tier system.

If you can’t afford it you can’t afford it. I’d like a new car but I can’t afford it, could we scrap VAT on that too so it would be easier for me to afford maybe my local care dealership could declare themselves a charity.
A private education is a luxury, luxury items should have VAT.

Private schools aren't "a charity", never have been

You sure about the never? Education wasn't always universal. Many private schools started out as institutions that worked with the poor.

Over a million kids in the uk are living in poverty

What are you doing do impove the lot of those living in poverty? Because all you see on mumsnet are benefit bashing posts, comments about poor people not working hard enough and post after post saying anyone without a career and a degree shouldn't have children.

This policy is not going to end child poverty. I'd be surprised if it raises even half as much as they think it will. It will reduce the catchment size of currently outstanding schools. It will increase house prices in some areas further still. It's not going to improve teacher recruitment into sink schools, and is unlikely to help support an increase in teaching staff over all. Our education system needs an over haul and nothing will.change until someone has the guts to admit that.

Some independents will close. The Government will need to find places for ma y children with SEN. It will also nees to take on the upkeep of many listed buildings that are held together with a prayer and blutac.

That's fine. If she goes to a UK university, that's £100K going into the economy, which is roughly what this policy is designed to achieve.

I also completely disagree with a 2 tier education system so even if I could afford I wouldn’t send my kids private.

I'd be more concerned that you can afford the extra fees (If you can afford 20,000 then the extra isn't likely to break the bank) that your older children have been given, and your DD is being told she can't get the same privilege as her siblings. How does she feel about it? Never mind what she says, how does she really feel about being treated differently? That can be the sort of thing that stays with you.

I still agree with the VAT. And I hope your bet on DS pays off when you're older. Take a look at the stately homes threads.

Why should private schools be treated like a charity? They aren’t one.

Why should they be exempt from VAT when other non-essentials aren’t?

Why should this system which promotes inequality be perpetuated?

Flimsy argument OP, you’re not going to convince anyone who isn’t already convinced.

It won't, you know. State school rolls are falling. No-one will lose a place and the schools will gain funding they would not otherwise have received.