Staff turnover in private schools

[BTsrule]

DS is at a private school. There seems to be a high level of staff turnover - maybe a quarter of the teachers that teach his year group are leaving. I am not sure if this is normal as people no longer want to have ‘jobs for life’ and need to move around to progress or if the turnover is signalling an issue. The head says it’s normal but he would of course.

Does anyone with kids at private school have a view on this? Is this level of turnover normal? Is it normal in the state sector? He is in y10 so not a good time to move him.

If private teachers were lower paid, working in less favourable conditions and receiving lesser training, then why would any of them want to work in the private sector in the first place, and why is it state schools (not private) that face such big teacher shortages?

In my experience, private schools (especially boarding) expect a lot more from their staff in terms of hours and extras. Pay does not always reflect this. They can also be quite 'old-school' in terms of HR practices, training etc and get away with things to do with staffing that state schools would not. Plus many of them are ditching TPS. There are plenty of things that might still make it preferable to most state schools though - better behaviour, higher aspirations, better facilities, longer holidays, various perks etc, not to mention reduced fees for the teacher's own children.

For me, I'm afraid, it was what marketing people call the "product surround". I enjoyed (for a while) working in a clean, well-repaired, well-run building with adequate numbers of reception and caretaker staff, interesting history, nice colleagues, nice food and a comfy staff room. Plus much smaller classes so the marking burden wasn't so crushing.

Communication was good. You might not like what you had to do but it was crystal clear what it was.

I still have the nice colleagues in state but my word the condition of the buildings...and communication suffers because everyone's so overloaded...

@sparklewhite sorry what makes you think private schools aren't facing the same recruitment crisis? Where are your stats?
Here, our local private school had to work with the state school last year to get a science teacher. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/chemistry-teacher-london-recruitment-crisis-state-schools-b1057751.html

Teachers move to private in the hope they'll have a lesser workload and better behaved pupils. That may happen in some private schools, but if this thread is anything to go by, that's just not the case in a lot of them.
I'm honestly not here to argue with you, if you don't believe me or the many other posters on here, that's ok.

In my experience, private schools do not necessarily have higher salary than state schools, particularly at management levels; lots are coming out of the TPS which is a major benefit for teachers; and there certainly is NOT more money to be spent on teaching resources. For many private schools, staffing is by far their biggest cost. Once grounds are maintained there is little left for educational resources.

There is some exceptionally good teaching going on in the state sector, which tends to be more research informed. Some teaching (not all, of course) in private schools is woeful but there is less monitoring of staff- which can be a bonus for teachers- but means poor practice is not always weeded out.

Yes- classes are smaller and holidays are longer. But the average day is longer and teachers are expected to do more duties and after-school activities and attend more events outside school hours, so that evens up in the end.

On the whole behaviour is better as there tend not to be extremes of poor behaviour. However, it is certainly not the case in my experience that the children are all well-motivated students with supportive parents. Levels of apathy are high and many parents now think they have signed the cheque so it is all the responsibility of the school. Parents want the children to do well but they don't want them to have to work hard- they want the teachers to work hard and the children to have a lovely time.

SEND support is also a massive issue. We have increasing numbers of children with SEND with varying needs but compared to many state schools, we do not have the resources or expertise to support them adequately (which is saying something given the pressures the state sector is facing).

So still some benefits to working in the private sector, but increasingly in my experience, the benefits are being eroded and a good state school is an attractive proposition that often pays better.

Not trying to argue either @Foxesandsquirrels - but South Hampstead Girls and UCL Academy sharing a chemistry teacher is a long way off ‘conditions are worse for teachers in private.’

I know for a fact that at my kids’ London indie there are several applicants for each teaching post advertised - obviously that’s one school, so not representative of all. But I also know several teachers in both private and state schools. Without exception the private teachers are more highly paid and far less stressed, whereas a number of the state teachers are facing enormous challenges and a few are considering leaving altogether. Again, this is all London, so not necessarily UK-wide I know - and just my experience….

@Fayrazzled This. Exactly what I've been trying to explain. This may not seem relevent but it's exactly the reasons why independent schools are also struggling with recruitment.

@sparklewhite But it isn't a long way off. This is a very prestigious private school that couldn't get a science teacher! I'm happy for your kids school but this is just not the case in the less sought after London indies. Teachers are also burnt out and are either leaving the profession completely, or trying the private sector in the hopes it'll be better. They often find out it isnt, maybe not for the same reason as the state sector, but for the most part, it's not better. And not everyone can work at the likes of Highgate or St Paul's. I'm not sure I can say anymore tbh, I don't think a whole thread of people saying I'm right will make you agree. I genuinely hope your kids continue having a well staffed school, but I promise you it is not a given that private schools have better conditions and pay.

2 dc at different private schools -

school one, very popular, highly rated, huge staff and huge turnover. Haven’t seen the announcement for this year but last year it was about 15%. As a lay person I think the teachers are under enormous pressure to get good results and a lot of the parents are, quite frankly, terrifying. SLT also terrifying.

school 2 is tiny and lovely and only one teacher leaving this year for very specific family reasons.

Something I noticed when I arrived at the state school was the energy. The exam classes really want to do well (on the whole). They may not quite have the skills, confidence and cultural capital to do so, but the desire is there.

The independent I was at, the students knew if they didn't do well then it would be OK for them anyway. Of course that would not be true at a really top, heavily selective London independent, but there are many schools and it's hard to generalise.

But all schools are fishing in a diminishing pool of teachers at the moment.

It’s so school dependent. One of the privates round here that had a reputation for being nurturing and not overly academic has now started turning those kinds of pupils away -being the “go to” school for those children was not working well. It cost them in resources, results and reputation and was putting off the parents who could afford private but didn’t get into the hothouse independents.

And turnover following a new HT is by no means a bad thing - schools, both private and state, can really stagnate with a long time head.

Private schools leaving TPS just means that good state options have a better poo to pick from.

This is such an issue in state and according to my neighbour who teaches in a local top rated private school it’s an issue for them too.

The teachers I know leave because of dreadful admin / over work and horrific lack of respect from pupils. The things said to my lovely sister by teens she teaches makes me want to cry.

@Foxesandsquirrels - but this isn’t a whole thread of people agreeing with you 🤔…lots of teachers on here are saying these points about private teachers somehow being worse off simply aren’t true.

South Hampstead saying they couldn’t find a high enough calibre chemistry teacher and deciding to share a good candidate with a state school doesn’t point to private schools having the same recruitment issues and overall challenges as state schools . We all know that state faces a different set of issues thanks to years of underfunding and terrible governments…it’s different.

@shockeditellyou I know that's a typo but it's strangely realistic to spme recruitment 😂

A few left when the head left but no our school was fairly stable in this regard. In my DD's sixth firm a few teachers left but were at retirement age. She did have her Psychology teacher leave but like the new one better!

😳 I’m mortified -it should of course have said pool!

Have you read the article? They couldn't find a teacher. They're not being lovely and sharing one with UCL from the goodness of their heart. The article actually points out that some teachers prefer working in state schools and they hoped this would appeal to a teacher that would find half private half state appealing.
There's plenty of people agreeing with me but you're choosing not to listen. You couldn't be bothered to even read the article of look into that story. Once again, I hope your kids continue to have a well staffed school. I'm not engaging with you any further.

@Foxesandsquirrels - I’ve read the article. Where exactly does it ‘actually points out that some teachers prefer working in state schools’?!

It doesn’t say that! It says the role would appeal to those candidates who want to see ‘what life was like working in the two different sectors and break the stereotypes that exist about state and private schools’. - not the same thing. It also points out that the said teacher would likely have two different salaries - I’d put money on them earning more from the private school. Money isn’t everything of course but in a piece that also points out how tough it is to live in London, salary matters for teachers.

I’m not trying to get into a row but it just irks me how anti-private sentiment feeds into some of these threads and sweeping inaccurate statements gets bandied about.

Increased staffing levels at the senior management level are the primary reason for staff turnover. Each additional member in senior management must demonstrate the necessity of their role, creating excessive demands on teaching staff. Teachers, irrespective of the sector they work in, should be allowed to focus on teaching without constant scrutiny through initiatives like "learning walks and open door policies." My sister-in-law teaches at a private school after many years of working in other fields. She says it is the profession where employees by far are trusted least by both senior leaders. In the private sector there is the added layer of demanding parents.
The younger teachers are not so worried about the teachers pension, they struggle with the demands placed on them.
To the OP, yes that is abnormal level.

Not normal for my DC school - turnover quite low. Perhaps 1 of DC's teachers leaving each year for last 4 years? Don't have exact figures but it's not seemed high. But the school seems to have good pay and conditions and very rarely advertise any vacancies so don't seem to have any trouble recruiting.

I think those posters with experience of London/South East will have a very different outlook to posters from elsewhere as the market for private education is so different. Two thirds of independent schools are located in the South and 36% in London and the South-East. Affluent, well-attended schools can afford to pay teachers more and offer other attractive benefits. It is just not the same in other areas of the country where many independent schools are operating on much slimmer margins, especially smaller prep schools.

Additionally, changes in demographics of pupils and their families too (far fewer parents from 'traditional' professions such as medicine, law and accountancy than there used to be- in my area there are some great state schools they will move to be in the catchment for) and an increase in pupils who are being moved out of the state sector for the benefits of smaller class sizes, but who come with additional needs we can find it hard to meet- mean the job is changing and the benefits for teachers are being reduced- increasing workload, less support from management and parents, a lack of resources and eroded pay and pension = a less attractive proposition for teachers.

I'm not seeing the anti-private school bias. I teach in the independent sector- I'm just telling it how it is from my perspective. My school has much higher rates of staff turnover than it used to and on the rare occasions we have supply in they are shocked at what staff are expected to do compared to the state sector.

I am relieved that there are posters on here who are noticing very recent changes in the independent sector (changes which are now sector-wide, and also affect high profile London independent schools and major boarding schools).

Consultancy-reliant governing bodies are outsourcing recruitment of Heads and SLT and are following poor advice to erode teacher pay, increase workload, reduce curriculum range, overspend on new facilities and withdraw from TPS.

It is creating mayhem in the sector. This is why you are seeing an exodus.

Ive only ever worked in London and south east, so everything I have said about poorer pay and conditions and larger class sizes in private schools applies to London and the South East

Both our schools are SouthEast and we are not seeing any of that currently.

One is 80% day pupils
the other 95% boarding.

Class sizes haven’t changed, work load no different. My kids have left now but we are still close to many parent / teachers. And of course we get the annual reports the latest of which arrived yesterday.

You wouldn't know, would you? Where are they going to record "on Tues 27th, we were 3 teachers down, so put 8 classes together with 5 teachers, and split them between the gym and the sports hall, and every individual teacher had 50 students of mixed ages"

For the second mainly boarding school for example and not including chats with teachers and friends still there

They have lots of extra teachers that act as housemasters that don’t work full time in teaching.
The class sizes average 10 max 15.
The staff mostly live in. They are the same staff that have been there a while with this year one retiring and the new staff member already announced.

If teachers are Ill they have plenty of other qualified teachers in all subjects to step in.
In the entire time we were there my children were always taught by a subject specific teacher, When teachers were off on trips for example there were plenty to step in.

Plus
The annual report reports on all financials, everything even cost of window cleaning for example
If the school has to pay for anyone extra we would see it itemised
Sick days are also noted both for students….as this affects cost to the health centre and school nursing staff and doctors visits. Plus for teachers. Not their names but number of sick days and how the classes are covered. They are always covered with a same subject staff member.
All staff teach gcse and A level, so their is no shortfall in knowledge either.

So I can say with a lot of certainty that the previous descriptions aren’t currently happening at our old schools.