Dd moved schools, in wrong sets

[Norpeth]

We recently moved house and Dd (year 8) moved schools.

After a few weeks of being at her new school, we've realised DD has been put in the lowest sets (out of 6) for every subject that is ranked by ability. Now DD isn't a child genius but I'd have expected her to have at least been in sets 2/3, probably even 1 for English.

On top of this, the behaviour and disruption in her classes is unbelievable. She says most of the lesson is spent telling off students, warnings being written out and kids being sent out ect. There are chairs being thrown ect. The kids talk through the lessons and most of her lessons are being taught by supply teachers who just give out a work sheet and aren't bothered if the work is done or not. A few of the teachers have even commented that she is the only one who does the work. The higher sets only get occasional supply teachers. At the moment, her class does not have a proper maths or language teacher.

Anyway, I spoke to her head of year who confirmed most of this (including that kids in her classes aren't interested in learning and the behaviour is awful, which I actually found quite concerning about how he spoke about these kids. He has clearly given up on them!)

He went and spoke to her teachers and called me back saying every teacher he spoke to said she needed to be in much higher sets. I asked when I could expect her to be moved and he said hopefully by September but there's no room in the higher sets so he didn't really know.

Can I insist on having her moved? I don't know where to go from here. I'm considering telling him I will homeschool until a space in the higher sets becomes available.

Dds English teacher spoke to dd after this and told her she needed to be in her higher sets and would enjoy it more as more work gets done and there is much less 'silliness'.

Has anyone else had similar? Thank you!

How many subjects does the school set for?
In Y8 schools around here set for maths, PE and some schools set for science and English. Is this school setting for more than these subjects?
In the subjects that are mixed ability, how is your daughter getting on there? How is she enjoying the school generally?
If she likes the school, I'd be inclined to suck it up for now, encourage her to do any extra extension homework activities, read widely and aim very strongly with the school for her to be moved up in September. She would have end of year assessments under her belt then and this should rank her above others.
If she is not happy at school and there are other concerns then waitlist for other schools and if desperate take her out of the school.
Y9 is an important year to get right, I would be aiming for that.

Is it possible that the upper sets are at capacity and to put her in there would involve moving an existing and also capable pupil down a set (or several pupils down a set)? Unfortunately she has no more right to be moved up than pupils already there.

Just to clarify Diary of a Wimpy Kid books have an average reading age for books published for the age range the OPs child is part of. The last one published that we purchased for our school library is slightly above book level 6 which is at the top end of the majority of teen popular fiction.
My point is that reading for pleasure is enormously important. I have no information about the school library at the OPs school I hope they have a full time school librarian who can recommend books for the students appropriate for their age and ability.
All reading is good, I myself find Wimpy Kid dull but I would never try to stop a student from borrowing it. Especially as I know the book level is at least as high as many popular books.

There will be a deputy head in charge of curriculum. Suggest you ask to meet in person. Stress how unhappy your daughter is and how she's not learning in her current sets. Be prepared to be flexible and happy for her to be in a mixed set.
As a science teacher, our top sets are usually full but middle sets have about 24/25. Staff will generally be happy to squeeze another student in as long as a well behaved student . I very much doubt all the other sets have 32 students in them. Be polite but do stand your ground and if possible, bring her school report from year 7 so they can see her levels. She shouldn't have to spend half the year in the wrong sets.

I’m sorry but extra reading (and my Y2 boy was reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid’) isn’t going to cut it. It’s a complete waste of potential and the OPs DD will be getting behind. It’s not acceptable and I would be going to the ends of the earth to get her moved sets. Follow the complaints procedure right through!

I have been a teacher for many years and this is why we scrimp and save to send our children private. The state school system is utterly failing our children. I know that state education is worshipped on Mumsnet but, having been a supply teacher for many years, I can tell you that it’s absolutely shite in the majority of secondary schools.

The OPs school is completely failing those children in the bottom set as well as the OPs child. And mixed classes are not the answer! My DD is in top set in Year 7 and they are working largely at GCSE level now. The bottom set would never cope with that pace and it wouldn’t be fair on anyone. In my DDs school the children are setted where they need to be and if rooms needs to be changed, more furniture ordered or sets split into 2 then that is what will happen. Obviously, state schools can’t do this with no money but this should not be acceptable! Every child deserves to be in the correct set.

My daughter’s school very occasionally has to use a supply teacher. If it’s a choice of the top set or a bottom set getting the supply then the top set gets it as they can work more independently. The higher sets are also bigger. Top set actually has 24 pupils in it (bearing in mind private class sizes are supposed to be smaller) and bottom set only has 10 because they need more support. And that’s as it should be.

Stories like this make me despair of our government.

This worries me as my son is academically pretty weak but he works hard and is compliant and very sensitive, I worry he’ll end up in the the bottom sets and have the same issues but he’ll be in them
because he needs extra help not carnage

Bollocks.

Absolute bollocks.

Really a candidate with 9x level 9 GCSe isn’t superior in terms of academic results to a 9X level 5 GCSEs
absolute bullocks.

To get into university for example it is all (usually) about UCAS points and they don’t care when you sat them.

There are exceptions to this such as a medical degree which takes the highest 3 grades in any ‘one sitting’ usually.

Most candidates who sit GCSEs early sit the normal amount in year 11.

Anyone can see that a year 7 pupil doing maths gcse in year 7 is doing a year 11 course alongside all their loaded timetable - you know of all their others subjects and how incredible that is to do that 5 years early alongside all their full timetable.

when you are 20 years down the line - no one asks when you sat them just what grades you have

you do now have numbers for English A level you have grades A* - E. So you are not any teacher in England or an expert on the English Educational system.

Then there needs to be a complete reshuffle. Bottom person in set 5 moves down to set 6. Bottom person in set 4 moves down to set 5. Bottom person in set 3 moves down to set 4 etc. you can't have a set one or two person in set 6. If they take a pupil in then they need to put her in as close to the right set as possible

It is not bollocks, it is purely factual, whether you like it or not, and yes, it is a lot easier to take maths GCSE in year 7 on its own rather than in year 11 with all your others and yes, the number you take together counts, - I do sixth form enrolment every year. and yes, if you take maths in year 7 you are not likely to be accepted onto maths A level in year 12. There would be a 4 year gap in continuity.

Students rarely take maths GCSE in year 7, because there is not point. Occasionally we get students in year 4 or 5 that are put forward to.

A general comment based on what I have learned from reading these boards over many years.

The expectations on Home Ed students re number of GCSEs sat at a time is generally different from those in school.

Home Ed students don't sit GCSEs all in one go due to costs of both exam entrance and tutoring, and logistics. 6th form / college admissions tutors mainly understand this (of course there will be exceptions...).

Furthermore, HomeEd students show a different skill set to those in school. They generally need to be more self motivated and organised as they don't have the whole school system on their backs spoonfeeding information, structure and revision sessions etc. These skills are important for A levels / T-Levels.

It's a myth that any reading for pleasure will help you progress academically. You need to be reading increasingly challenging texts. It's the same as someone only playing grade 1 piano pieces over and over yet expecting to reach higher grades.

But the students who do it early at my school do continue - we have 4 that sat gcse maths in year 7-8 and got 9 and now they are taught a level etc (I teach in a top independent school) sitting GCSEs early if the pupil is ready is encouraged. Then we co ordinate what they do in that time. For maths yes it is continuous, as you can’t have a 4 year break maths accelerates normally eg gcse, then we do FSMQ and then possible a maths &stats etc or AS and then on year 11/12 they pick up further maths. Pupils sit French or Spanish gcse on year 9 and then move to AS level. So you are talking rubbish. Given my current school is a top indie school (one of the best in the country) and we have no problems at all getting students into oxbridge etc I’d be interested to know your exact role and school as I stand by my ‘bollocks’. If a pupil does a subject early we extend and this is done in full consultation with the pupil and parents.

It is absolutely not a myth @doglover90. Lots of research suggests reading for pleasure supports vocabulary development, comprehension, general knowledge and even maths.

Your analogy of playing the same piano pieces and expecting to make progress doesn't hold up unless a child is reading the same small number of books rather than a variety of different texts (or any level).

yes, if you continue to study, but to what end?

and you are working for a business, making business decisions, such as having their students unable to transfer to the state sector, or other institutions for sixth form.

Dont tell me, you offer iGCSE as well!

Is it an LEA school? Because over 80% of secondary schools in England are now academies, or members of a MAT and the LEA have no control over what happens there and will not get involved.

Report to Ofsted? This is not how they work and Ofsted will ignore the fact that one parent believes their DD is not in the right sets at school. Again, they have no power over this.

I don't think many people realise the facts about state schools in England. There is a staggering level of naivety displayed on many threads.

Very true, plus LEAs haven't even existed for 14 years. It's only ever on MN that I hear them referenced. I work for an LA school and the LA is always referred to as such.

😂
our school is heavily oversubscribed. 1/3 are on bursaries of over 50% or more and further 1/4 of those remaining are on a bursary from 10-50%. About 200 applications for 10-20 year 7 spaces this year. Yes we do the igcse.

A large number of pupils are desperate to get into our school because the state sector has failed them. They are in top sets twirling their thumbs while people like you limit them.

I can give you very specific examples but that’s breaking their confidentiality. Where possible they are kept in their class and extended / supported by the class teacher - 10 in a class so relatively easy on most cases.

would you rather a year 6 who has the depth and breath to sit a top gcse and get a level 9 just sits there. Nope they can do gcse, 7/8 might do the fmsq, 9 other gcse on hpq on that topic or As level. Depending on how it goes they may want to sit AS, A2, or access outreach from the local university. Better than sitting with their brain dead like you would have them. If it classics they might do Latin early (they all do this anyway - sit it early) and then maybe do another classics course or Greek etc
you seem to think educating is a dirty word. We look holistically what does the young person want to do? What can we give them to challenge them and what to support them - given 99% of our stay to do A levels with us…. They are not going back to state

OK, whatever - we take a huge number of applicants from the private into state every year. It can be quite a difficult transition sometimes, especially if they have done exams early, done iGCSEs, what ever. These are not better, or more wholistically educated, or whatever you want to call it. Just conditioned very differently. It can work, but it doesn't always - and some have to return to private, however reluctantly.

Others from private we turn down, as they are not suitable candidates, not independent enough, not flexible enough, don't meet our entry criteria, or whatever

It depends on what they are applying to do though - we sometimes offer a GCSE resit course for a year before A level, especially if some of their GCSEs were sat early, and individually ( or a level 2 course with one GCSE resit, typically maths or English that had already been taken a long time ago)

@Bakersdozens You make kids resit maths or eng lang gcse when they have already passed it?! Wow.
If you are concerned they aren't good enough at maths/english for the relevant course then just do a test on day 1 checking relevant skills. But making them resit the gcse sounds nuts to me.

because if they want to go on to A level, they need to show recent ability, not that they scored highly 4 years ago in easy circumstances, when it was the only GCSE they did -

We do assess them - and they are often very weak. Some have crammed for weeks to get a GCSE aged 10, then forgotten all about it in the years since.

you would be surprised how badly some people do, particularly in maths, when they get a 9 very early on, even before secondary school, but struggle to get a 5 in a mock when they are 16.

hence the offer of a resit year before A levels, it is quite a generous offer - and noone has to accept it, they will accept it if it is the best offer they get.

I’m not sure complaining politely to the school that they have given up on even trying to provide an education to hundreds of their students is going to accomplish much. They are aware of the problem. It needs outside intervention.

I say again bollocks. Doing a gcse exam alongside all your other subjects in year 7 is not easy. Please do post a link where you work so I can check the sixth form admission policy. Pm it - to prove it as I don’t believe you. I think you are potentially confusing home schooling of 3-4 subjects over 5 years rather than a pupil in year 7 doing an exam early. A pupil scoring a high level 9 in year 7 is not allowed entry. Does the DFE know that you are breaking government guidance?

Sorry not yet read the thread but this happened to me when moved in year 8. I got some top
Sets but the bottom ones there was no moving from as it was impossible to learn anything.

Luckily I moved schools again mid year 9 and was automatically put into top sets. I don't think I would have got many GCSEs without moving but got all A-C's and plenty of As once I was in top set.

Good luck!

This happened to my daughter in year 7 this year too, moving from prep to state they didn't have SATs results so put her bottom. It was traumatic because of the culture shock of the children she was surrounded by, but they did manage to move her to top sets by Christmas. Unfortunately this may have been too late for her as she is now struggling socially, and feels like she missed a huge chunk of maths.
I hope you get it sorted, but I would push for quicker, and also point out the effects it will be having other than getting behind.

We had this nightmare - really poor academic transfer from one school to another. DD went from being in the top 10% of the class to set 3 of 4 for maths and languages in her new school. DD was totally demoralised. She said the lessons were super slow.. it took emails, meeting, meeting with the headmaster and eventually giving notice (its a private school) and a whole term to get sorted. In the maths exam at the end of November her score was better than average for set 1...