Dd moved schools, in wrong sets

[Norpeth]

We recently moved house and Dd (year 8) moved schools.

After a few weeks of being at her new school, we've realised DD has been put in the lowest sets (out of 6) for every subject that is ranked by ability. Now DD isn't a child genius but I'd have expected her to have at least been in sets 2/3, probably even 1 for English.

On top of this, the behaviour and disruption in her classes is unbelievable. She says most of the lesson is spent telling off students, warnings being written out and kids being sent out ect. There are chairs being thrown ect. The kids talk through the lessons and most of her lessons are being taught by supply teachers who just give out a work sheet and aren't bothered if the work is done or not. A few of the teachers have even commented that she is the only one who does the work. The higher sets only get occasional supply teachers. At the moment, her class does not have a proper maths or language teacher.

Anyway, I spoke to her head of year who confirmed most of this (including that kids in her classes aren't interested in learning and the behaviour is awful, which I actually found quite concerning about how he spoke about these kids. He has clearly given up on them!)

He went and spoke to her teachers and called me back saying every teacher he spoke to said she needed to be in much higher sets. I asked when I could expect her to be moved and he said hopefully by September but there's no room in the higher sets so he didn't really know.

Can I insist on having her moved? I don't know where to go from here. I'm considering telling him I will homeschool until a space in the higher sets becomes available.

Dds English teacher spoke to dd after this and told her she needed to be in her higher sets and would enjoy it more as more work gets done and there is much less 'silliness'.

Has anyone else had similar? Thank you!

But they can't both electively home educate and keep the place at the school. Elective home education is a legitimate choice for a parent to make. And if she has left for EHE, even if there is still a space available once sets have been re-determined, it's highly unlikely that the HT is going to ring up and say, Reapply quickly, we're holding places in set 2 for every subject for your DD to come back into.

If the school genuinely only reassesses sets at the end of each year, then actually being present and part of that process is the best way of being moved to the correct set for each subject.With the proviso that the OP's DD does need to make sure somehow that she will have covered the content necessary to be able to show that she 'needs' to be moved up, if this is likely to be an issue.

This is terrible advice. Firstly, the child will never get a place in a higher set if they are home schooled, and secondly home schooling would not be a "threat" to the head teacher, but a problem off their hands

You don't go to Ofsted or the LEA over these type of issues. The school will have a clear complaints process. Definitely speak to the school. Feel sorry for any other kids who may want to learn being affected in this way. No wonder there is a teacher shortage.

Hi OP, this is one of the many problems with setting.
There is lots of great advice on here. I'm on the inside of sorting students into sets in secondary. We do it in the lower school ie year 7 to 9 mainly on reading age data for new or inphase admissions like you daughter. Once in school it's all about the assessments for subjects that set.
If you withdraw and home ed as previous posters have said you will take your child out of that process.
My advice for what it is worth is to help your child with reading for pleasure as this will increase her vocabulary and enable her to work at a higher level across all her subjects including maths, which has a surprising high level of reading in class and on exam papers. And manga and graphic novels and mixed format like diary of a wimpy kid are all excellent for this purpose. Also audio books have the same positive affects on vocabulary.
The BBC website bitesize has a huge range of resources divided into key stages, this can support her academic work.
And please know that your support will see her through this difficult time.

My classroom has 32 desks but there are quite a few teaching groups larger than 32. I have some spare chairs and we just squeeze students on to the end of a row. It's not ideal but this is the state our underfunded education system. Have also worked in a school that couldn't recruit and so the split a class in half and added each half to another set making sets of 45.

Bakersdozen “This is terrible advice. Firstly, the child will never get a place in a higher set if they are home schooled, and secondly home schooling would not be a "threat" to the head teacher, but a problem off their hands”

Have you homeschooled a child Bakersdozen? Only on the last post you were shouting at me on you seemed to be a medical expert so guessing you’re not an education expert too?

(Btw I’ve worked in the education sector as has my DH and our homeschooled DD got 8 GCSEs before the age of 15 (her first at 13) all top grades so I know a little about this subject!)

But if you elect to home educate, @MumOfOneAwesomeHuman you are removing your child from having a place at the school. If and when you wish the child to return to school, you cannot be certain that there will be a space in the year group and if there is, whether there will be spaces in higher sets. The likelihood is that there won’t be and the same situation will reoccur. Several posters have said this.

When you elect to educate at home, the responsibility for education falls to you. You can’t say that a child is not receiving an education, but the education for this particular child is not suitable.

I’d do what others have suggested and do as much extra curricular as you’re able and as much supplementary learning as you can. I’d keep talking to the school and show how keen your daughter is to progress in school and that you want to support her in learning. You could also get on waiting lists for other schools in the area, if you’re able to manage the travel, but bear in mind you may face a similar experience.

If you keep a polite and committed dialogue with the school, they will want to help.

Ofsted are not going to do anything about top sets in a school being full. There is a complaints procedure to follow anyway and Ofsted is not the first port of call.

It's hard when a child isn't in the right set but when they join a school mid-year, this isn't unusual. Whilst some schools have more flexible teaching spaces and so might be able to squeeze an extra student in, others don't. At my DC2's school, the triple science GCSE class is determined by the maximum capacity of the science rooms and no amount of negotiating or pleading is going to change the size of the room or the number of science benches available.

I wouldn't recommend withdrawing your DD from her new school unless you don't intend to send her back. Formally write to the head of year and head of key stage to ask what they will put in place to ensure your DD accesses appropriate teaching and learning opportunities, ask when the next assessment point is and when sets will be adjusted. You should also ask what they recommend you do to support your DD to ensure she is on track with the teaching groups she hopes to move into. Putting things in writing can often help issues to be followed up at a higher level as emails can be forwarded on easily but there's also a clear paper trail.

It depends, because the school is short staffed, so it may have less sets than it actually needs. I have taught in schools where the top sets have had 34 kids, due to budget constraints and staffing shortages- especially if the lower sets have supply teachers as well. If this situation has been ongoing for a few months, it's likely a number of more engaged parents have already got their children "moved up".

For someone else to "move down", you have to be able to justify that to the parent and child because it's demoralising for the child, and the parent will likely complain. As such, it may well be that sets aren't being looked at until end of year exams are sat or similar.

Given the departments sound short staffed, it's very likely at the moment they are focusing on GCSE classes etc, rather than Y8.

This is just the reality of state education in 2024.

@Norpeth You can't really use deregistering as a threat- you can't say you will rejoin the school when spaces become available in higher sets, because those spaces will never become available- the school will fill them with children who are registered. If you deregister "through choice" then the LA have no duty to find alternative education for your child.

I would go onto the waiting list for the other local school, and yes, by all means keep complaining- I would definitely raise it again after Easter, I would also try the HoDs for the subjects you're concerned about as well.

I take the point that the top sets may already have 34 kids in them or whatever - I have certainly taught in schools where this has been the situation - but I do find it implausible that there is absolutely no wriggle room for this girl to at least move up to a middle set in at least one or two of the subjects that are setted.

The school may well have a policy of not moving sets mid year, which the head of year may be trying to follow here. However, in my experience, any policy like this will sometimes be flexed, basically if to do so becomes the course of least resistance.

OP needs to be polite but persistent and show that she will not go away, so that it becomes easier for the school to move the child than to leave her.

It's not fair on the kids with non-persistent parents of course, and it's a travesty that there are groups like this at all (and I am not blaming the poor teachers in any way for this), but OP must do what is best for her child - I would!

When kids joined mid year, often (by no means always of course) their parents were less concerned about their academic progress (I know full well their are circumstances when kids just HAVE to move mid year, and it's no reflection on the parents, but in general terms). Therefore, often schools are able to "get away" with paying less attention to the setting.

Can I just say again that mixed ability is SO much better and fairer for all in my opinion. Provided planning and delivery are thoughtfully done......

we are not talking about home schooling, long term, but getting into top sets in the school, and if your child was home schooled, then you will know that she hasn't got 6 GCSEs for entry requirement purposes, as she has taken at least one at 13, so that would be discounted.

And yes I am an expert in education, and it may surprise you to know that most people in education are expert in something else too, or what would they be teaching?

Push them to know when the setting is reviewed in each subject, and whether there is any possibility of her being squeezed into an upper set in at least some subjects. It may be worth contacting each head of department separately, as they may be better able to make the decision that an extra pupil could be fitted into room 17 than an administrator who isn't involved in teaching that subject. If there are summer term exams or assessments, check whether those are different for different sets, and if so whether she will be able to sit the ones the higher sets are taking.

I used to be in charge of setting for my subject, and there was only one occasion on which I did not find a space in the right set for a new pupil; even if it did mean moving an extra chair into the room on days when nobody was absent. (The exception was an overseas pupil who was only going to be at the school for six months, and I already had 35 in the top set - curriculum mismatch meant that although she was top set ability, she was behind on some topics and ahead on others, so no set would completely match anyway. Her parents queried that she was not in the top set, but when I explained, agreed with my reasoning.)

We had an influx of top-set kids one September (parents were involved in a major departmental relocation), several being in the same year. Once we'd tested them, we had to completely re-jig the setting to create the spaces in the top set, and move a few kids down from each set to the next. We sent some carefully worded letters home explaining to parents that their child wasn't moving set because they had got worse, but we had had to redraw the boundaries, and each set would now be working at a slightly higher average level. Fortunately everyone seemed to understand!

That’s very impressive to go from GPs receptionist to education expert. Well done.

Apparently and adoption expert too!

I’m head of a core subject. Email the heads of the subjects the sets are wrong for. Importantly, include KS2 Sats scaled scores if you have them. Your child will count on my data so I want them in the right place.

Often, the child arrives before their data and they’re just put in a class with space with the intention of moving them when we know what they can do. But that relies on the class teacher saying something. I have dealt with situations where the class teacher hasn’t flagged the wrong set for months, and I won’t see it if it’s not pointed out to me. Or they have mentioned it in passing and not followed up so it’s been missed.

Be polite but clear that the set is wrong. Acknowledge that there may not be space in the top groups but ask if a more appropriate set placement is possible. If you don’t hear back within a few days, email or phone again.

she hasn't got 6 GCSEs for entry requirement purposes, as she has taken at least one at 13, so that would be discounted.

Sorry for the digression, but why would it be discounted @Bakersdozens?

Because it is very easy to take GCSEs one at a time, and much harder to take them all together, so when a training placement, sixthform, university, etc states a minimum number of GCSEs an applicant must have, they will firstly look at the number taken together.

For example, if I am enrolling for A levels, and we say minimum 6 GCSEs, and I have 2 candidates to choose between,

Candidate 1 - took 1 GCSE in year 7 and got a 9, 2 GCSEs in year 8 and got 9s, 1 GCSE in year 9 and got 9, 2GCSEs in year 10 and got 9, and 1 in year 11 and got a 9 - you might count that as 7 GCSEs at grade 9BUT I would count that as 3, as only 3 would have been taken in the same 12 month period, maybe the 2 in year 10 and the 1 in year 11

Candidate 2 took 6 GCSEs in year 11, and got all 5s, I would take candidate 2 over candidate 1 any day - they have done something very much harder. (as long as the A levels they want have entry criteria of 5s)

The other issue we have with GCSEs taken early is the gap between finishing the GCSE and starting the A level, many teachers say no more than 12 months ( some say that is too long) and with proof of continuous study during that 12 months.

So again, for English A level, candidate 3 has a 9, which she got in year 9, and candidate 4 has a 6 which she got in year 11, again, I would take candidate 4 over candidate 3, due to continuity of study

Thanks, really appreciate your detailed explanation. Interestingly my DD's secondary modern did split GCSEs, ie they took half in Y10 and half in Y11; several people warned me about exactly what you are saying, and we did query it with the school at the time, but we were told that's how they did it.

As it happened, neither the well-known private school nor the high-achieving girls grammar school to which she applied for 6th Form were at all bothered and both made DD standard offers based on her best 8 GCSEs, regardless of the fact they were taken in different years.

They said they understood that DCs had no influence as to how their schools structured their GCSE exams and therefore felt it was unfair to discriminate against them on this basis.

As to your second point, however, there was definitely an issue with the A levels. In some instances, there was a gap between finishing GCSE study in the summer of Y10 and not studying the subject again until the autumn some 16 months later at the start of Y12. The school no longer splits GCSE exams in this way, which probably confirms exactly the issue you have outlined.

@Notgoodatpoetrybutgreatatlit I certainly wouldn't be recommending Diary of a Wimpy Kid to a bright Y8 student trying to progress academically. It's aimed at primary school children.

I'm amazed the school does setting at key stage three as the majority don't.
Whilst I see flaws in mixed ability, they work in terms of not creating sink sets.
Personally though, I'd have a top set (gifted/talented cohort) a nurturing group and the rest all mixed ability, for precisely the reasons you give.

"The behaviour and disruption in her classes is unbelievable. She says most of the lesson is spent telling off students, warnings being written out and kids being sent out, chairs being thrown, kids talk through the lessons and most of her lessons are being taught by supply teachers who just give out a work sheet and aren't bothered if the work is done or not."

Supply deliver what they are told to: although you can zhuzh up where you can, if you are given worksheets to hand out or textbooks (turn to page x) or told to ask them to make a sodding poster or mind map (with no materials other than a blank piece of A4) then you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, especially if you have no access to the smart board/laptop etc

Supply and Cover Supervisors often are bothered, but the nature of the job whereby classroom management trumps delivery (i.e. don't let them kill each other) means their hands are full trying to minimise the disruption and provide a safe learning environment. This is especially true when you might be Day to Day Supply #20 the children have had. It's a vicious circle.

A few of the teachers have even commented that she is the only one who does the work. Mine had this in French. They have now "solved" the issue by removing it altogether and they all have to learn Spanish instead as they couldn't get a specialist. They had a glut of supply and were doing booklets for months on their own (self-taught/independent learning). This is why noble starts the threads that she does about teacher retention.

The higher sets only get occasional supply teachers. If that is true, then they aren't levelling up and they are merely trying to protect their 5+ students. Most schools will spread out a specialist on rotation if a long term absence hasn't been filled. You are correct that children are being written off otherwise.

At the moment, her class does not have a proper maths or language teacher.
Doesn't surprise me at all.

Every teacher he spoke to said she needed to be in much higher sets. I asked when I could expect her to be moved and he said hopefully by September but there's no room in the higher sets so he didn't really know.

Strongly worded letter to the Head and the members of SLT in charge of Teaching and Learning/Behaviour, quoting what the HOY has confirmed.

Can I insist on having her moved?
Insist, no.
Make yourself a nuisance until they find a spare desk and chair, yes.
Be that parent. Write the letter expressing your concerns.
If you have your daughter's SATS scores and raw scores and their reading age, even better.
Copy in the Chair of governors.
Ask daughter to make a log of all her lessons (quick note on who taught and task set) from now until Whitsun. Write again.
Mention how resilient your child has been but that her mental health, wellbeing and confidence are suffering as a result of being in a group not tailored to her ability (making it a safeguarding fail their end).

If they insist there is no space in a higher group then ask for the work that is being set to be given to your daughter to complete in the Emotional Support Unit, until they make space there is.

tailored to her needs.
(They aren't meeting them, is the bottom line).
Sounds like they aren't meeting any of the children's needs tbh.
Are they in Special Measures? What is their most recent Ofsted like?

@Ilovelurchers and @Octavia64's advice is good. Do that.

Be polite and persistent. Even if you can only get a couple of sets moved this term, that's an improvement (especially if they're Maths and English). For Humanities, I'd have thought she could do higher set tasks in class at times, as presumably they'll be doing the same topics. But you/she need an idea of what the higher set would be doing.

I teach an extremely mixed ability group for an optional GCSE subject and tbh I spend a lot more time on behaviour than the subject. I often think I might as well not be a subject specialist!

Have you asked the old school for her records to be sent/collected? It will help will placement.

To move her up moves another child down - so they have to get it right. I’m not saying she La int he right place - but Lee pushing. She needs to make friends aswell.

in most state schools this is the case - top set at maximum capacity bottom set has room.

they can not put an extra child is a room with no room eg start of the year with 30 on set 1. Then you get 2 moved in and then -another pupil moves in. You have to move one down - mid year this could mean potentially serious issues for a pupil eg yours moves in and into bottom set but they have to move someone out to move her up so what do they do? Teacher now has 32 and refused to take another. Or One child (bottom of set 1) was told they had made the top set for year 8 ( and was thrilled) but now parents are told a new child has arrived, and they are brighter so yours moves down - how bloody demoralising for that child being moved down - their parent complains as the assessment are in June - that when a reshuffle should take place. Also they are moved down and on science bottom set did biology in term 2 and the top set does it in term 3, so that child gets no biology all year as they have moved. Or maybe Jenny struggles with fractions but the rest of her maths is good, yet yours arrives when they have just done fractions so Jenny gets moved down - it’s a minefield.

I would make an appointment not with the head but the deputy head of curriculum or the head of year and ask for a copy of the work covered so far and when the year 8 assessments are and what is covered on each subject and get her totally up to date - you moved schools you can’t expect she just rocks up especially -if she hasn’t had any assessment and is in top set. You have about 10 weeks for her to prove her place (great motivator) etc in the meantime you can push her case but realistically you can see the position - child earn their place on year 7 then shouldn’t be forced to move down just because a new student arrives. Teachers in state schools - I can remember once having 35 and them 3 newcomers I had to say no as otherwise that was 38 in my class. Bottom set had 10.

have a calm discussion. Unfortunately mid year is a bad time for a school move. Or 2/3 the way through.

this is my mind of a discussion to have had before she moved.

behaviour is irrelevant to ability - they should be just as well behaved in a low ability class and high - so any poor behaviour or long term absence needs to be addressed properly. You shouldn’t ask to move a child due to poor behaviour - all children are entitled to decent teacher and decent behaviour. I appreciate some schools give their less able staff to bottom sets and some to top sets to have less of an impact. But it shouldn’t be the case

I can't believe some of the replies to your post!

Speaking as a parent and a deputy head, it is totally unacceptable behaviour from the school. They can't and should not leave your child in a set significantly below her ability because they "have space". And, if they continue to refuse to move her, you can and should go to the LA and complain that your child is not receiving an appropriate education- and push for a move to another (better) school. I think it also definitely merits a complaint to OFSTED.

It's not down to your 13 year old to do additional work at home because her school aren't educating her properly.

And don't even get me started on schools that abandon the bottom sets to supply teachers I wouldn't want my child attending a school with that attitude regardless of the set they ended up in