DS wants to get into grammar school but won’t put in the work

[Anxiousannie3]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post.

My DS (10) is I would say bright, is at the top of his primary school class for English and maths, always gets top marks for tests and is upset when he gets something wrong. In our local area for secondary options there are 2 comprehensives with a grammar stream and a grammar school. Both DH and I went to grammar schools so know the system.

DS has said he would like to take the kent test to try and get into grammar school but refuses / moans when I try going through some workbooks with him. The primary school he’s at are not doing any mock tests or being encouraging in any way, and DH and I both agreed that getting a tutor wouldn’t be the best for DS (although understand why others do it).

DS is also distracted very easily and has shown some signs of ADHD (in attentiveness / talking over people / can’t sit still etc) my DH is adamant he doesn’t want him tested or “labelled” .

At moment we‘ve tried going through some cgp workbooks with DS, first of all doing 30 minute sittings with him doing it himself (he gets bored after 10) and actually sitting there going through it with him. We always end up arguing as he’s always whining and getting the simplest of questions wrong even though we’ve been through it before. He knows how to answer but keeps making silly mistakes when going through it with me.

my patience is wearing thin - I’ve said to DS is he doesn’t want to take the test we won’t make him, I’d rather him be happy than feeling pressured. however, he keeps saying he wants to take the test and go for grammar school and initially agrees to stop whining and do the work then when it comes down to it it’s the same cycle all over again.

im losing sleep over this , I just don’t know what to do. It’s stressing us all out. Any advice would be appreciated.

@AvengedQuince yes I agree. The student doesn't need to be exceptional, not round here, whereas they would be in areas where there are only a couple of selective choices.

So the tears you take for the grammar school are nothing like they’re taught in school so they would need to practice them first. They are verbal reasoning tests - a little bit like IQ tests.

Schools aren’t meant to teach to them either. I’m sure I read there was a rule saying so. But I taught in a school where the kids who were sitting the grammar school test were put in a group once per week and did work through lots of examples and were taught how to do them.

Not all areas have a grammar school that’s not a private school so when you are on one of those areas they can get really competitive. Not all kids do well at grammar school either.

Do they know how much grammar push the kids and the near constant tests they do? My middle daughter is in grammar- now I'm her a levels there(my eldest ASD child refused to test and I'm glad as he would have seriously struggled!) Don't get me wrong, she's come on leaps and bounds, but only because she is so driven to get everything done. It has opened doors for her future, no doubt about that, but she's literally working on half terms/Xmas/weekends to get it all done as there is a constant stream of work to do. She has had people with ADHD and ASD in her GCSE years but they did struggle. I'd maybe ask the grammar school what help there is even if he's not diagnosed and maybe see if there's students that can chat to him about the real side of school life there beforehand.

I hardly think that's unique to grammar schools. I've taught in rather relaxed grammars, and test mad comprehensives...

Depends on the specific school.

@Muddyevil82

That was nothing like my child's experience of grammar.

@AvengedQuince Me neither. My boy just coasted and did well anyway.

Have you tried doing the practice first thing in the morning when he's fresh rather than after school? Start with 10 mins, build up to 15, etc

Nor mine.

My child knew students from the local comp and they got more homework than the grammar. At the grammar they got a lot of work done in class time as there were few disruptive students.

Let him do the test, failing is an excellent lesson some kids learn too late. Failing the Kent test doesn't matter if the local schools stream he'll find his level there.

@Anxiousannie3 I think this is more to do with your concerns about the grammar because you went. You expect him to go based on his school performance. He says he wants to go to please you but surely if he doesn’t want to prep, too bad! You have comps with grammar streams. What is he going to lose by going to a comp? If he won’t work he’s got an issue wherever he goes!

Why are you losing sleep over this? You will have to accept he’s making up his own mind and doesn’t want it enough. I would take the test and see how it goes. He might then realise doing a bit of work can get you what you want. That’s if he really wants it.

Whst are his friends doing? Are they doing any work and targeting grammars?

If he won’t work he’s got an issue wherever he goes!

DS was not the studious type, only really studying now for A levels. However, he will work solidly in class time. For a child like him, grammar, simply because there were fewer behavioural issues and disruption in class time, was a good fit.

100% this. Better he learns the lesson now than later at GCSE or A Level!

@TizerorFizz im fine with him going to a comp, I guess I just don’t like seeing him not get what he wants, I’ve taken a big step back now since I first posted and will continue to do so.

None of his friends want to go to grammar, he has a few round occasionally but wouldn’t call them best friends.

This is true and is what happened with our son at his grammar. A lot of the time, the homework was simply "finish the worksheet we started in class", which he'd already finished in class, so no homework! Most of the time, the homework he actually did was "revise for test next lesson on abc" or longer projects like long English essays or making something for art/tech etc. We were actually surprised at just how little homework he ended up needing to do. And, yes, because they got through a lot of content within the lesson due to lack of disruption, etc and being able to concentrate on what the teacher was teaching due to there being no distractions.

Indeed. The thing is that "doing well" at primary doesn't necessarily mean he's particularly bright as the bar is pretty low at primary level these days. It's pretty easy to be on the "top table" without being particularly academic if you just keep your head down, listen and do the work. None of it is rocket science at that age. It would be a good life lesson and maybe the required kick up the bum for him to take the 11+ with preparation and not do well enough to get a place - it may be the nudge he needs to realise that he does need to put more effort in, which would then mean he'd make a flying start at the alternative comp that you think is OK anyway!

@Anxiousannie3 I'm wondering why you're ignoring the advice about seeking an ADHD assessment?

this sounds supremely arrogant. I live in a part of the UK that doesn't have grammar schools but even I can grasp the concept that things might have changed between whenever someone old enough to post on MN did something in one place and 2024 in a different place.

@Anxiousannie3 He is not socialising with others who are prepping for the exam and you are asking him to be different and get out of his comfort zone. No one else is so he isn’t bothered either. Who mentioned the grammar? I feel he is old enough to understand that you have to do a bit extra to get what you want. So if he won’t engage with that notion then it’s being a bit juvenile I’m afraid. Does he not have any friends that want the grammar? That’s quite odd. Most bright dc seek out others who are similar.

No need to be rude 🤷🏻

Totally. I think there’s a tendency to underestimate state schools. I know loads of people who got straight As at the normal local high school.

@easylikeasundaymorn does have a point though. It may have been designed originally for no prepping, but the goalposts has changed. The current exam (in Kent) covers work which has not been covered in schools, As an adult, I would need time to understand some of the questions in the test, plus kids aren’t used to sitting exams, etc.

https://www.kent.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/14513/Kent-Test-familiarisation-booklet.pdf

Kent Test familiarisation booklet - gives you an explanation of the types of questions you’ll get.

My DD did the same, she does have a diagnosis of ADHD though. I paid for a month of Atom learning and said if she didn't commit to that I wouldn't put her in for the test, and she only used it once, I wasn't forcing her to. She made the decision not to sit the exams in the end, after she found out the homework expectations were much heavier than the alternative school. Thankfully though our alternative school was excellent, or I would probably have got a tutor earlier.

My DD sat the 11+ (two actually as she sat for a couple of schools and they use different tests) in September. I was nervous about how she'd find 11+ prep so tutoring wouldn't have been the right approach for her, nor would sitting and working through tests together as she'd have felt under pressure from me (she loves a structured, focussed academic experience and enjoys taking tests in school, well suited to a grammar setting, but has quite focussed ideas of home vs school).

We visited the grammars, along with the comp her brother attends firstly to see whether she liked them, which is a big part of deciding whether to try for grammar- have you been to visit with your DS? Can he identify what he likes about the school? Perhaps a review of these features could be motivation to do some prep.

Then I booked DD in for a mock in the May half term, which meant that if she still wanted to sit the 11+ she had 4 months to prepare. It also identified areas where she could practice/revise. We bought a couple of books for particular things (algebra as she hadn't learnt it yet at school but they had a section on algebra in the mock and a book of synonym games which was fun to play at the dinner table and helped her too). Then she did a mock for each school the week before the actual exams so she had time to get the timings in mind before doing the real tests.

I'd really recommend you push for your DS to sit a mock so that he can see what the test entails, the sort of questions he'll be asked, what sort of pace he needs etc. Then if he finds it's easily achievable great, if not, he'll see that he might have to do some prep if he really wants to try for the school, and hopefully it will motivate him.

To everyone that has mentioned this, I’ve spoken with DH tonight and he’s agreed we should look into an ADHD assessment for DS . It’s going to be a long road I expect but it’s probably best we look into it so there’s options if he’s got it.