DS wants to get into grammar school but won’t put in the work

[Anxiousannie3]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post.

My DS (10) is I would say bright, is at the top of his primary school class for English and maths, always gets top marks for tests and is upset when he gets something wrong. In our local area for secondary options there are 2 comprehensives with a grammar stream and a grammar school. Both DH and I went to grammar schools so know the system.

DS has said he would like to take the kent test to try and get into grammar school but refuses / moans when I try going through some workbooks with him. The primary school he’s at are not doing any mock tests or being encouraging in any way, and DH and I both agreed that getting a tutor wouldn’t be the best for DS (although understand why others do it).

DS is also distracted very easily and has shown some signs of ADHD (in attentiveness / talking over people / can’t sit still etc) my DH is adamant he doesn’t want him tested or “labelled” .

At moment we‘ve tried going through some cgp workbooks with DS, first of all doing 30 minute sittings with him doing it himself (he gets bored after 10) and actually sitting there going through it with him. We always end up arguing as he’s always whining and getting the simplest of questions wrong even though we’ve been through it before. He knows how to answer but keeps making silly mistakes when going through it with me.

my patience is wearing thin - I’ve said to DS is he doesn’t want to take the test we won’t make him, I’d rather him be happy than feeling pressured. however, he keeps saying he wants to take the test and go for grammar school and initially agrees to stop whining and do the work then when it comes down to it it’s the same cycle all over again.

im losing sleep over this , I just don’t know what to do. It’s stressing us all out. Any advice would be appreciated.

While I agree with other posters that you should get your son assessed for ADHD- I understand your husbands position - people need to be kinder.

I went all the way through education not being assessed for dyslexia (which I have - assessed as an adult) because I was afraid of being seen different - I was also worried that I was just stupid - turns out I was indeed dyslexic! Being assessed the best thing I ever did and I am sure your husband will feel like that once your son gets the help he needs.

Maybe he finds school so easy that he can’t imagine not asking the test.

If he’s not going to study then he’s probably not grammar material. Even if he passes, he may get more homework and testing than at a comprehensive and you don’t want to be one of those parents who are still cajoling him into studying when he’s a teen.

I would say that he needs to do x mins per day/week and if he doesn’t then you’re not submitting his name for the exam.

The ADHD issue is really cruel towards your son. Without a diagnosis and medication, you are purposely making his life harder

Why do people need to be kind to somebody actively hampering their child's progress and future for, what - reasons of 'pride'/outright ableism? They weren't even being 'unkind' to the child's father, they said the child needs assessment.

I think get a tutor or leave it to chance....if he's bright he might pass anyway. There is no point whatsoever doing tests that he knows are optional and isn't putting effort into.

Could you implement some kind of reward/bribery system. E.g. 10 mins of proper concentration doing the workbook a day = 50p towards something he would like to buy. It must be frustrating....he'll probably be ok whatever happens.

My adult children all have ADHD and dyslexia. Whilst 3 went to uni the youngest now has a formal diagnosis (when he was 24) and wishes he had got it years ago. He is medicated and he says school and uni would have been easier and he would have achieved so much more if he had been able to access the support he needed.

Because frankly you don't know the background of what is going and there is very limited information in this post...typical of MN where everyone thinks they know what is right for other people's children!!!

The angry faces in my opinion a bit unnecessary... that's not exactly kind.

How does your son like to learn? There's an app/website called Seneca that could be useful. There is an option for 1-1 tutoring but there's a lot of learning and quizzes on there.

From your description, it sounds like:

1. He doesn't have a chance of getting in; and
2. A grammar school wouldn't be the right place for him anyway.

I have taught Year 6 for the past 5 years and also live in an area with grammar schools- the only children who get in are exceptionally intelligent, work incredibly hard without needing to be nagged AND have a dedicated 11+ tutor on top of all that.

You shouldn’t need to put in work for the 11 plus. It’s designed to test general aptitude and does not require existing knowledge.

I sat and passed the 11-plus having never heard of it previously (my parents saw an ad in the paper for a grammar school in a nearby city – our county didn’t have the 11-plus system).

If he’s bright, as you say, and did well in SATS he should be fine.

If it were me, I would invest in a tutor and definitely investigate the signs of neurodiversity you are seeing.

A lot of neurodiverse children cope well in primary school, especially if they are naturally able, but the wheels start to come off with the higher demand of secondary school, even if he goes to a non-grammar school. I think you need to address this with your DH, otherwise he will potentially go all the way through secondary school struggling with neurodiversity (which could be ADHD but could be something else), and will potentially miss out on support which will help him.

I think if you find the right tutor, they will also be able to get a lot more out of him than you will. A lot of people do tutor/practice for these tests- it's not a level playing field.

Exactly this, he’s 10 ffs. Just because people desperately try and game the system doesn’t mean it’s obligatory.

Don’t commit to withdrawing him from the exam if he doesn’t study – you’ll back yourself into a corner, and he might pass anyway. He might as well at least try, whether he practices or not. Then he can’t blame you if he doesn’t get in.

Your internalised ableism wasn't your fault. It was the fault of other people - like the OP's husband and those who have influenced him - influencing you.

Yes and the labelling point - this is just nonsense, you need to get your son diagnosed.

It was suggested to me by a speech therapist that I didn’t bother getting my son diagnosed with autism so as not to label him (I ignored her). Then when he started school the challenges he had were so significant the school kept asking if he was diagnosed yet, so that they could use his diagnosis to request funding for additional support.

He won't pass the test without additional input. He won't be able to do that additional input until you find out why he can't focus, concentrate etc so you need to get him assessed. If he does have ADHD, his symptoms are only going to get worse and Secondary schools are much less understanding and accommodating when it comes to undiagnosed issues. He will be labelled as naughty or unfocused instead and get into trouble. You are doing him no favours especially as waiting lists for assessment are so long. Sorry but it makes me really angry when children are left to suffer the support they need because parents don't want a "label". It's incredibly selfish and will impact your son's future if you don't wake up and get him the help he needs. Your husband is an arse and I'd ignore him and get the ball rolling.

People seem to think that parents send their child to a tutor because the child isn’t bright enough to pass the 11+ without being ‘coached’. The reality is that everyone sitting an exam needs preparation. You wouldn’t expect a pupil to sit a GCSE without having done practice papers and revision, so why people think the 11+ is different, I don’t know!
Often dc won’t co-operate with parents at home when it comes to extra-curricular work, but will be fine with another adult. No matter how bright the child, if they are in the state system there will be questions in the 11+ needing techniques and knowledge which they won’t yet have covered in school. I would always opt for a tutor - it takes a lot of the angst out of it for the parents!

If he isnt interested in working from the books, how about subscribing to something like cgp online or bofa11plus.

There is a small subscription cost for them but theres a variety of long and short tests with explanations of answers for questions answered incorrectly.

It might work better for him than working from books for now. Once he has built his confidence in the tests maybe you can try the books again? Mix it up a bit.

It can get very boring to be constantly doing the same thing even if its for something they really want.

Allow him to sit the test when the time comes. If he has the ability he will pass. Usually children who are working at greater depth consistently through the years dont need too much practice. It's also sometimes not necessary to have covered year 6 topics to pass ( but do check whats applicable to the test in your area as they differ)

A little bit of familiarisation with the test format helps.

Let him do the tests.

If he can't pass them with the ability he currently has to concentrate then grammar isn't the right place for him.

If he regrets not putting in the work then lesson learned but it's something I ate in him so would have always been a risk he couldn't focus to manage the workload even if bright enough.

If he does pass then it doesn't matter he couldn't/ didn't revise and will be educated somewhere suitable.

The risk you have by forcing him to do the extra work under pressure is that he does pass - but then fails because he can't sustain that level of pressure for the next 5-7 years.

Agree, just like it might not be her husbands fault and hence why people need to be kinder and stop with the angry faces and assumptions. We are all susceptible to ableism as this is the world we live in sadly.

My ds wanted to sit the 11+. I entered him for the exam, got him the relevant practice books, gave him the books and left it up to him. I don't think he opened the books once! He took the test and got offered a place at one of the grammars (marks too low for the other).
I wish people would stop saying you won't pass the 11+ without practice, some kids do.
maudelovesharold I did absolutely buggar all revision and certainly no practice papers, for my GCSEs and no practice papers (but did revise) for my A levels. Had diabolical attendance for year 4/5 (in modern day parlance yrs 10/11). Still somehow passed 6/8 GCSEs at a 'C' or above. I only discovered revision via practice papers at university.
Some kids do well with the bare minimum, some kids don't make the grade despite working like soldier ants. It's a very unfair system...I absolutely should not have passed any GCSEs, whereas dh should have done really well if it was purely down to effort and hard graft.
I should add, from uni onwards I became and have continued to be diligent and hard working. I just had absolutely no motivation or interest to either go to school or at school when I did bother going, not helped by not knowing what I wanted to do as a career, and having totally disinterested parents!

I think you’ve got a couple of different issues here.

First I agree that it does your son no favours not to be assessed. If he has issues he is better off knowing that, working on learning strategies, adjustments as appropriate etc than worrying about “stigma” of a label.

Second it is a rare 10 year old, particularly in boys,that has the internal drive to follow through wanting the outcome (here getting into grammar) into being keen to sit down and do actual work in the moment. In the same way they might want to pass their piano exam but practicing scales is boring or getting good at a sport but doing the hard yards of drills is boring. And 10 year olds are not the best arbiters of what is in their best interests.

My DS had the clear ability to get to pass our local 11+ but frankly that in itself is not enough. A bright child cannot turn up and score high enough without preparation where I am. You needed to be able to know what you were looking at, to have covered the syllabus, to be able to do at speed. Stuff like non verbal reasoning and some of the verbal reasoning like codes is baffling if you’ve not seen before. He wanted the grammar place over the local Ok comp but like the Op’s son was not keen to do the work to get there. We decided that whilst we wouldn’t fight with him, it was in his best interests to help him be properly prepared. And so we structured getting access to what he wanted without being excessive - eg on a Saturday no PlayStation before you’ve done an 30-60 mins of prep, rising as closer to the exam. Closer to the time we also moved on to low level bribery - “credits” for doing work that could be converted into PlayStation vouchers etc. it probably worked out at maybe £1-2 an hour but added some carrot to the stick.

I would look very carefully at the marks/location needed for your grammar as I know this varies within Kent. If you think it is doable then I would make a decision if you’re going to go through it, agree a plan with him, remind him of this when he whines and structure it so it easiest for him to go along with it.

The 11-plus really isn’t designed to be like that. Its design is such that anyone can sit it and pass without ever having seen a similar exam. That’s the whole point really – it assesses natural ability, with things like verbal and non-verbal reasoning.

GCSEs are to do with subject matter and entirely different. No-one knows what parts of cells are called or how to do trigonometry unless they’ve studied it.

People throw money at 11-plus prep because they’re desperate for their kids to gain an advantage. Doesn’t mean it’s required. Middle-class patents will always try to game the system.

I passed the 11-plus having never even heard of it before. It’s not taught in schools because it’s not meant to be.

11+ is not really an ability test. Of course a base level of ability is important, but to get the high scores the Kent grammars require, you need lots and lots of practice of the specific type of test.

There is a LOT of competition. Kent is projecting a shortfall of around 300 places for DC who have passed the 11+.

The state primary schools are not allowed to prepare for it.

Yes it is a stupid system.

I didn't put my daughter in for 11+ even though most of her friends did it (and her school, which is private, does prepare for it). She was diagnosed with ADHD at 7 and I just didn't feel she had the maturity to do tests at the required age. I am ex grammar myself so it was a wrench, but it was the right thing to do I.hope - I am also now of the view that comprehensives are generally in a better position to support DC with learning needs than grammars.

But if you're determined to do it, I'd go with a tutor if you can find one, Atom Learning and some bribery.

Why can't he just sit it anyway? My DS refused any input from me, though he did work through a book himself in the holidays before the test. He got in easily.

By the Kent test, does that mean you are in Kent or do other counties use it? I thought that was an area where grammar was fairly easy to get into for bright kids?

I'd also say "is upset when he gets something wrong" is.worth bearing in mind.

Anxious perfectionists a) abound at grammars (I taught in a superselective) and b) sometimes won't study as that's better than being seen to fail.