DS wants to get into grammar school but won’t put in the work

[Anxiousannie3]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post.

My DS (10) is I would say bright, is at the top of his primary school class for English and maths, always gets top marks for tests and is upset when he gets something wrong. In our local area for secondary options there are 2 comprehensives with a grammar stream and a grammar school. Both DH and I went to grammar schools so know the system.

DS has said he would like to take the kent test to try and get into grammar school but refuses / moans when I try going through some workbooks with him. The primary school he’s at are not doing any mock tests or being encouraging in any way, and DH and I both agreed that getting a tutor wouldn’t be the best for DS (although understand why others do it).

DS is also distracted very easily and has shown some signs of ADHD (in attentiveness / talking over people / can’t sit still etc) my DH is adamant he doesn’t want him tested or “labelled” .

At moment we‘ve tried going through some cgp workbooks with DS, first of all doing 30 minute sittings with him doing it himself (he gets bored after 10) and actually sitting there going through it with him. We always end up arguing as he’s always whining and getting the simplest of questions wrong even though we’ve been through it before. He knows how to answer but keeps making silly mistakes when going through it with me.

my patience is wearing thin - I’ve said to DS is he doesn’t want to take the test we won’t make him, I’d rather him be happy than feeling pressured. however, he keeps saying he wants to take the test and go for grammar school and initially agrees to stop whining and do the work then when it comes down to it it’s the same cycle all over again.

im losing sleep over this , I just don’t know what to do. It’s stressing us all out. Any advice would be appreciated.

“The 11-plus really isn’t designed to be like that. Its design is such that anyone can sit it and pass without ever having seen a similar exam. That’s the whole point really – it assesses natural ability, with things like verbal and non-verbal reasoning.”

You obviously don’t live in Kent where the 11+ is massive. It doesn’t just test natural ability. A lot of the maths on the exam is year 6 and 7 maths, so hasn’t been taught yet (test done in September), and it’s unfair to let children do exams in which they have no idea of how to do the questions. Also, just practising exam technique, timings, not panicking etc is important. Whether you use a tutor or just buy the books and work through them yourselves, preparation is important.

Yes, maybe the 11+ was set up to be all fair and equal, but in today’s society it’s a dog eat dog world out there. I don’t agree with heavy tutoring from year four (or before), but in my area of Kent, it was usual to do preparation for the exam for all or some of year five.

You really can get into a top school without practicing the exam.

My high school (100% grammar) is in the top 20 UK secondary schools according to the Times. I passed and attended the school having never even heard of the 11-plus until the day I sat the exam.

It’s well known in the region and certainly oversubscribed – they select the pupils who perform best on the test, not just anyone who passed.

Of course some pupils won’t pass without coaching, doesn’t mean no-one can. They’re aptitude tests.

“The Kent Test” is the official name for the 11+ exam in Kent, and there are a lot of grammar schools around. However, you still have to pass the test ( or get in on appeal).

@Riverlee

practising exam technique, timings, not panicking etc is important

Arguably unlikely to be an issue if the kids don’t feel anxious or pressured about the exam.

I also passed the Kent 11+ (in the early 80s) without any practice or angst, as did my younger sister, but things are really different now. The grammars the OP is referring to have thousands of applications, many from miles away, and they can't expand.

On the plus side, there are more good alternatives to these schools than there were in the 80s.

Aptitude is, well, aptitude. The potential for something. The current system mostly tests the organisation skills of the parents.

My DD has aptitude. Just not the other attributes needed.

I would explain if he wants to pass, he needs to do some work. But if he is happy to try and most likely not pass because he does not want to do the work, that is up to him. Tell him, take a mock test, see your score and you will see there needs to be work put in to get a passing mark.

If my dc did not want to do the work, I would not bother. But I would try the above before giving up. Both of my dc (on my second 11+ prep now) were keen to do the 11+ and they both understood they needed to prep. Of course sometimes they were not in the mood, but mostly they did it without complaint.

@Phineyj mine was a lot more recent!

Just make sure he knows the full content of the tests as they don't cover it at school until after the test has been sat, eg averages. But sounds like he'll pass anyway.

Just say put in the work and you can take the entrance test. If you decide you don’t want to study then there’s no test and that he can enroll in one of the other two schools.

If he loses attention after 10 mins, could you do it in 10 minute bursts?
Maybe 10 mins practice. Then a more interesting activity for 10 mins as a break. (Maybe some gaming and a couple of biscuits?) Then another 10 mins of practice.
At least that way you'll be getting 20 mins focused attention out of him instead of 10 mins attention and 20 mins of whining and argument

@ApplesAndPearsTheFruits I'm not going off my own experience here. I taught at one of the schools and have various friends and colleagues going through the admissions tests right now.

It depends how much tolerance the OP and her DH have for uncertainty.

The secondary school admissions "system" around London/Kent borders is unbelievably crap and stressful!

Mine didn’t enjoy the workbooks either so we got a subscription to Atom Learning and they were much happier. There is also Century Tech which is good as well.

In Kent it's something like 30% who get in isn't it?

I'd encourage him to do prep but not pressure, and put him in for the test regardless. It's much lower percentage who go to grammar in my county and DS just did a book on his own over a few weeks.

I think it's around 25% of each cohort in Kent go to grammar - that's not the rates getting in though (which are complicated by lots of out of area applications).

The 11-plus really isn’t designed to be like that. Its design is such that anyone can sit it and pass without ever having seen a similar exam. That’s the whole point really – it assesses natural ability, with things like verbal and non-verbal reasoning.

The 11+ in our area, which all 3 of my dc took to get into the state grammars had V reasoning, NV reasoning, a Maths paper and an English paper and there were questions in the Maths paper which definitely wouldn’t have been covered by the end of year 5, given that the 11+ was taken right at the beginning of year 6.

I read 31% on the comprehensive future website, but no idea how reliable that is. The same website gave 15% for my county and I think it was lower when my child sat the test (he's year 13) as several schools have upped their PAN since. We have out of county applicants too.

If Kent is lower at 25% then that still doesn't sound that difficult for a bright child in comparison to where we are.

I think your husband needs to consider why he doesn't want a label. The implication is that there is something wrong with the adhd 'label'. Neurodiversity is just another thing that some people have and a caring parent will want to offer maximum support in that. Schools can make lots of suitable adjustments such as extra time and use of a prompter. Knowing a child has adhd is also very helpful for teachers who might otherwise put some.behaviours down as bad behaviour.
These issues could become much more obvious and cause more problems as he gets older; both in the classroom, managing schoolwork and forming friendships. You wouldn't deny a child a sight test or glasses if they were short-sighted, why deny your son suitable investigations.
Your husband's attitude is just cruel and smacks of prejudice.

Then he won’t succeed.

How do you know?

DS didn't put in much work or allow any input from me, he did one book, alone. No issues getting in, in a county where 15% go to grammar. Some bright children will be fine without much practice.

I don't agree with people saying not to let him do the test if he won't do the work. He's just a child and it's free so worth a shot.

It's not 25/30% of all year 7s in Kent getting grammar places who've applied though! That's the proportion who go to grammar rather than another type of school. Not everyone in Kent applies to grammar. Maybe not even the majority?

So the chances of getting in to a grammar are probably higher than that as a) not everyone eligible applies; b) you can apply for multiple grammars (6 choices on the form and you're not limited to the ones in your council area plus some don't have distance criteria); and c) some parents choose selective private instead.

But grammars aren't a homogeneous lump - they have different scores to get in, different locations, different outcomes, some are single sex, some aren't, a few do IB in the 6th form, there's at least one with an ASD resource provision etc etc.

@Phineyj
My point was it doesn't sound all that difficult to get in (unless you are only applying to a school where entry is highly competitive). I'd consider it worth just putting a bright child in for the test even if they haven't done much prep.

This! Not getting him assessed for something which can be treated and could have a massive impact on his education and wider life into adulthood is ridiculous.

Stop trying. See what happens. If he gets in, great. If he doesn't, well its a life lesson that you have to put in work to get what you want. Either way there's a win.
Grammar schools aren't the be all and end all.

4 choices in kent. And you take the test in your primary school on a school day within the first 2 weeks of September, provided you register in July. Out of county kids can do it at a centre at the weekend.
Some schools have their own additional tests which you can pass instead, mostly to give local kids a chance.
Which is quite different, in Surrey you still take each schools test at that school only.

Oh that's interesting about the choices. It somewhat advantages applicants from nearby London boroughs who can take a long shot at a couple of Kent grammars as well as choosing 4 comps locally.