Should I put my average child through 11+?

[LawyerMumAsia]

Good evening. My child is in year 4 in London and quite average (based on feedback from teachers over the years). He needs to work on this and that but is keeping up generally. Private schools are not an option for us. Is it worth me putting him through the 11+ exams for the selective grammar? Put differently, I don’t want to put my son through all that stress and extra work when, ultimately, he is unlikely to succeed in making the cut for the selective grammar and we won’t be able to fall back on private schools (eg in the event that he does well enough to get into a private school but not well enough to get into a state grammar). He only has one childhood and these years are valuable. Many thanks.

Wow 24 percent! That is so easy as compared to other grammars. Here to Tiffin Grammar much less than 1 percent of kids population is getting in. I wish we had grammars around where top 24 percent gets in.

I think you will regret if you don’t put him through exams. Preparation for exams and having a nice childhood can go well together. You have plenty of time. Small amounts of work everyday will not make any harm . The main hardwork is needed for the last 5-6 months before the exams which is not a long enough time to ruin a childhood if you also mentally prepare him of not getting a place. If you see that he can’t bear all these you can just stop your preparation at any moment. Would you also consider bursary applications for private schools? Some schools have places for many bursary students such as Latymer Upper. Best of luck!

Exactly - which makes them a totally different animal to the superselectives. It gets very tiresome on MN and elsewhere when people paint all grammars the same when there is a huge difference between the normal county grammars and the super selectives. I have DC that have attended both and the difference is vast.

Careful what you wish for - in the main the schools for the remaining 76% are shit. In a grammar county, you don’t have comprehensives - you have secondary moderns. They aren’t called that - they have euphemisms like academy or community school etc but they are sec mods.

True. Apart super selective we have a variety of schools and most of them have GCSE results above the national average.

I would send to the best comprehensive you can find to suit him. Otherwise the pressure would start when he still in single digits, and continue until he's left school as he will always have to work so hard to keep up.

Absolutely not as you are probably setting him up to fail. We teach our children that if they work hard and they their best they will succeed and it just isn't true for the 11+. The children I know who took the test and didn't get into any school were not so much disappointed but angry that they had worked hard for nothing.

I think an average child can be tutored to pass the 11+ and thrive at grammar schools in Kent and Bucks.
I really don't think this is the case for the London super selective grammars. To pass the test for those you either need to be exceptionally bright or above average and tutored.
I would be surprised if there were many children at the London grammars who didn't get 120 across the board for their sats.

Year 4 is still young - why don't you work through some Bond/CGP books together and work out between you where he's at and how easily he picks things up?

My son is also Year 4 and also pretty average in class. His older brother passed the 11+, which has made him want to have a go himself. At the moment he's enjoying working through the books with me and he's doing really well and his confidence with school work is growing with it too. However, I'm taking a laid back approach and will re-assess at the start of Year 5. If it looks as though he'd need intense tutoring/hours and hours of work at home to pass, it'll be a no for us.

Completely agree with others who mention average children fall to the bottom of class in a grammar system by the way. The top grammar near us has alarmingly high rates of self harm and poor mental health among the students due to the pressure and inability to keep up with the incredibly bright top students.

At the age of 10, of course. All the pedagogic data indicates that academic achievement is not linear and that the vast majority of DCs will experience peaks and troughs - < 2% achieve top results throughout their time at school and university, and there is no direct correlation between 11+ scores and GCSE or A level results.

We don’t have 11+ here but dc did sats in year 6 2 years ago. Teachers had them as average… they totally shocked everyone (teachers not me) with their top results. My average dtds are youngest in the year and bloomed late, school never seemed to recognise they’d changed about half way through year 4 and kept them on the same trajectory.

if your dc wants to try then let them - but do it in a “let’s see what happens” kind of approach.

All those hours studying are not wasted since no matter which secondary schools they do go DC need solid Maths for sciences subjects and extensive English for those essays subjects such as History, Geography etc.

I would say no unless you think your child is resilient and will be able to shrug off the disappointment and loss of confidence if they don't achieve.

My daughters (11 and 13) both did 11+ for superselective and did very well without masses of tuition but were always "greater depth" in every area through primary school. My oldest has been labelled gifted in English and youngest very able in maths. This is not to brag but just for context.

The process still worried me and my daughters as my oldest, though bright, was incredibly unreliable with completing tests (and could get either close to 100% or zero!) and my youngest was more consistent but less resilient and would have really taken a possibly irreversible knock to confidence if she had not got through.

Also, my oldest is coping well but I've heard some of her friends say they feel stupid when they are not in the top half of the class (but they are still quite able). I think it can be hard for some kids.

Just another slant, if the OP's DS has suspected ADHD, could it be that in reality he is actually significantly above average and a lot of his efforts are going into masking/coping with the ADHD? It might be worth reserving judgement on ability/suitability until after this has been investigated.

For a truly average child I would say that I wouldn't go that route. Mine went to selective London grammar schools but scored very highly without tutoring and were always in the top handful in their year group throughout their time there. That made for a pleasant and certainly not over-pressurised secondary school experience. However the academic standards were very high and the pace of learning fast. They both got all A stars in their A-levels and did loads of sports and extra-curriculars and went on to study very competitive courses at University and I feel their education served them very well across the board. However, for less naturally able DC in their year groups who just got in and often with much tutoring, there were some who struggled a lot just to keep up. There were a lot of self-esteem and MH issues around that. I think for the right DC, and it is not just ability but academic and social confidence too, these schools can be great but for others they can be not good at all.

No. There you go. You're off the hook.

I am in London and I wouldn't do it for the north London grammar schools - they are too competitive, both to get in and to keep up.

I have an above average (but not top of the class) dd and I'll put her in for some private 11+ exams as there are less competitive schools which are still academically selective. But she wouldn't cope with the superselective grammars or privates and she'd be unhappy trying to achieve that level.

If we didn't have the budget for private we'd move house to get into a top comp like Camden or Alexandra Park where entrance is mainly based on distance. I don't know much about boys schools but there must be one within moving distance that could be an option? Or if you are religious you can look at the top Catholic/CofE schools.

Latymer upper isn’t a grammar - it’s private

Not only North London grammar, all of grammars in London are competitive. The south and south west London are even worse: Nonsuch, Sutton, Wallington, Wilson, Tiffins. Circa 1600 candidates for 180 places at Tiffin school

There is also a grammar school called Latymer in the north.

I wasn’t referring to Latymer Upper, which is indeed a private school. Latymer School is a super selective grammar school in North London.

I wouldn't do it. Tried and failed with my 2 older sons, one of whom was very bright and hard working and, the other just above average and lazy. Neither got in or even close and it was a nightmare few months/years and all pointless in the end. I also wouldn't try the super selective privates for the same reason. Even the supposedly less selective ones around here still turned down loads of bright/top set kids, all of whom went either to the local state or more mediocre privates and are all doing absolutely fine. DS2 gets all 7/8/9s typically so not sure what we would've gained by going to a grammar unless you're after all 9s. . With my 3rd child we'll be going comprehensive or a nice gentle mixed ability private school. Nooone needs to be made to feel stupid/unworthy at 11.

Just to add, the school my DCs applies to was Latymer and it was over 2000 applications for 260 places, I think.

Also to add, both my DCs were greater depth in all subjects. DS1 got 120/120 for reading/writing SATs in Year 6. DS2 got 135 in his maths CATs. Neither got close. In their years of 120 kids I think one or two in each year got in and in both cases they were kids who had siblings at the school so obviously knew what to revise, exam technique. I was not up to speed at all on that which didn't help.

Latymer latest is 2500 applicants for 192 PAN. You don't have to be in the top 192 to get in normally top 400 will do as there will be applicants go for privates, QE, HBS or DAO.

However I agree, top set or full mark on SAT or high CAT might not be enough. It is a slightly different game.

Just to add, I do feel the time was wasted. We could have been doing other, more interesting and varied activities during that preparation time. Also as a pp said, lots of it is exam practice/verbal reasoning or whatever which doesn't help much with anything else.
He's well ahead of his peers due to the pushing, and will be likely be bored for a long time at the "requires improvement" school that is our guaranteed state option.
He also now feels a failure, which is worse. 😞