Should I put my average child through 11+?

[LawyerMumAsia]

Good evening. My child is in year 4 in London and quite average (based on feedback from teachers over the years). He needs to work on this and that but is keeping up generally. Private schools are not an option for us. Is it worth me putting him through the 11+ exams for the selective grammar? Put differently, I don’t want to put my son through all that stress and extra work when, ultimately, he is unlikely to succeed in making the cut for the selective grammar and we won’t be able to fall back on private schools (eg in the event that he does well enough to get into a private school but not well enough to get into a state grammar). He only has one childhood and these years are valuable. Many thanks.

Does he want to do it? I asked my son and he said he'd give it a bash. My son is reasonably intelligent but not a massively high achiever. I don't have the money for tutors or anything like that.

I just said to him that it was up to him and I'd support him. I've made sure that he knows that it's just an exam and not indicative of his worth in general. I've told him there are many good schools around that some of hie friends are attending that aren't grammar schools. So its not the end of the world if he doesn't pass the exam. I've no idea if he will or won't pass the exam. But he's a wonderful boy and I'm sure he will do well at whatever school he ends up at. It's really up to him if he wants to give this exam a go. I'm not particularly invested in him going there. I attended a grammar school (a different one to the one my son likes) and I did not like it. My son just likes the look of this school as we drive past it every day and it has beautiful grounds backing onto the park. If he wants to try and go there he can do and of course I'd be very proud of him if he did get in. But I'm keeping chill about it. He's such a sweet boy ill be proud of him whatever he does

Once in the grammar school the pace and depth of learning are greater than in non-selective schools, it can be hard to stay a float. Also, kids compare themselves with those at the top of the class who are very often exceptionally bright, making themselves feel inadequate or stupid.

Many thanks for all the helpful feedback. We are based in north London (Mill Hill) and I understand the competition is fierce as there are not many choices of selective grammar. He is currently 8. Still so young and needs his childhood. In regards to asking him what he wants : I know my son and he will just follow whatever I say. So if mummy says that’s a good school he will say yes ok I will try. He is too young to understand properly what it will all mean. I don’t want to open up a conversation about it if ultimately we are not going to do it as I also don’t want him to get into his head that the non-grammars are not good schools too. I will do some research on the various schools and give it some more thought. A tutor has offered to give him an assessment (obviously paid) and then she can let me know whether it’s worth going ahead. Sounds like a good idea.

totally agree that it’s important not to put him somewhere that he will feel less bright for many years if he scrapes by in a grammar school.

I went to a state school and did fine (I am in banking). However I would have benefited from more private tuition. We can afford tutors so maybe a state school plus tuition is ok.

I am having him assessed for adhd, not sure if that’s got anything to do with how challenging the 11+ prep will be but thought I would mention that too.

thank you

Just to also add on : I am also conscious we will certainly be putting him through pressure for his GCSEs and his A-levels. So do we really need another pressure cooker for the 11+ if ultimately it may not even be worth it..

My fallback option is to not sit the 11+ exams BUT still cover some 11+ material with private tutors so that he goes to the non selective state secondary feeling good / confident.

How can time spent studying or learning how to study ever be "wasted" ?

I work with many immigrants. They do not believe that any child is incapable of passing the 11+ and getting into a grammar school ( Kent). SEN aside. The skills of maths, verbal and non verbal reasoning can be taught and honed with practice. Read Matthew Syed, no child should be written off as "average" at 11, much less at 8.

I went to a state school and did fine (I am in banking). However I would have benefited from more private tuition. We can afford tutors so maybe a state school plus tuition is ok.

Since you said in your original post that private school is not an option, presumably the 11+ you are looking at is for a state grammar school? Grammar schools, like comprehensive schools (and the schools which are effectively secondary modern schools, in fully selective areas) are state schools, even those that are academies.

Why will you be 'putting him through pressure' for GCSEs and A levels? If, even at this stage, you are envisaging needing to use coercion to get him to work to the best of his ability, for exams that all mainstream pupils take, whatever school they are in, grammar school probably isn't the best place for him.

My DS is 10 and currently prepping for 11+, also has ADHD (and mid assessment for ASC). It 100% adds extra challenge as even with medication he finds it harder to concentrate.

He is very bright (especially so for maths), that's the only reason I'm continuing as we feel an academic school is the best option for him.

Given the speed they have to work at (along with natural intelligence), we don't know if he will make it. No way I'd be considering this approach with an average child. I'd be personally focusing on the local comprehensive schools.

It's not just getting him through the 11+, it's how he'd fare once there.

DD was always "top table" at primary, consistently working at greater depth etc. She's now at a grammar and is middling at best. Some of that is down to her work ethic/organisation skills, but mostly it's the nature of a grammar school - there are some incredibly bright children.

Realistically an average child at primary coached through the 11+ will be at the bottom of the class at grammar. How would he cope with that - is he resilient and full of confidence? Would he be determined to work as hard as possible to keep up? Would you be able to afford extra tutoring? If the answers are all yes then I'd say go for it.

Reading your post OP I think you already probably know in your gut what the answer is.
I do think as others have said, you have to be very careful in even considering whether or not to sit it. I have had friends who told me they regret putting their children through it (years of tutoring and then didn't get in) especially when as one parent said to me they now think the comprehensive her children are in is great and the grammars seem "really boring".

We never went down the grammar route, admittedly I am not in favour of them, but I did my best to put my bias to one side and explain why people think they are good and said I would support my child if they wanted to apply (although they'd have to work for it!). I think it is a good thing that they didn't sit the test because whilst the stigma of not passing isn't what it was in my parents days, it is still a failure and I think children would carry that around with them (it is bound to come up in conversations in life - 'did you sit 11+?'). I think the grammar school system is pretty awful TBH. I think it steals childhoods between ages 7-10 when children should be playing!

I think you will get a variety of views as not all grammar schools are the same in terms of competition. The North London ones are hugely competitive. I wouldn't do it for a child who is not already towards the top of the class.

For NW7, the state option of selective school for boys is rather limited and probably subject to one of the highest competition in the country. Even you consider give a try in the end, would you considered move to a less competitive area?

In my experience (upper KS2 teacher), the 11+ is absolutely brutal even for the super 'academic' children. The amount of stress they are put under/put themselves under is unreal. Combine that with the prep for SATS and it's just not fair.

OP, I would use this time - as others have suggested - researching the best comprehensives near you. Even if he does pass the test, the pressure to keep up could do him some real damage if he struggled. I only know of 2 children who went to grammars and thrived. The rest are stressed and exhausted beyond belief.

Can you not talk to him and ask him what he would like to do? I thought my quite average dd wouldn't pass but she was keen to take the test. We hadn't tutored so both of us were very surprised when we logged in about 4hrs after everyone else and found she had passed (just!). Some kids work better at tests than in the classroom, so my opinion is that if you haven't caused him stress with tutoring and ranting about how he needs to get in, it is unlikely to be a memorably stressful experience. He presumably knows there is a test he could take?
We didn't go to grammar as had already chosen a private option, but dd is still thankful she took it as it really did boost her confidence.
I remember my own mum telling me I was too thick to pass and only when she died did my dad tell me I hadn't actually taken it. I spent my childhood in top sets of private schools thinking I wasn't as bright as those in the local grammar and that she was embarrassed of me because of it. I really think being open and asking the child is the best option.

My mum came to a decision with me not to when i went for it years ago..

I could have passed, but i would have had to really push myself and been stressed..then once in i would have had to maintain that momentum as the expectations were so high.

I excelled in most subjects but maths i was awful, the school expected above in all subjects.

I would.
I did all the Smiths 11+ books with my son and he did pass the maths section but was one point under the English and he didn't get into Grammar school.
He did gain a lot of confidence in maths and got him into a good set eventually in Secondary School and he got good result in his maths GCSE and is now doing further maths A Level.

8 is quite young to tell especially for some boys. I would keep your options open but not push super hard at this stage.
You sound like a lovely thoughtful parent.

My child is working at greater depth and the grammar schools are like mini universities. It's a totally different set up, if your child isn't there academically gifted they will struggle in my opinion.

I wouldn't. My son was always a high achiever, he sailed through both the Bexley and Kent 11+ tests and went to his chosen local grammar.
He hated it, hated the pressure. He made lots of friends and a great social life so no problems there but was very fed up with school by sixth form that he gave up and didn't pass his A levels (but had already decided against university). He's doing great doing a trade apprenticeship/college now, but that's no thanks to the grammar school! He could have started this earlier but was pressured to stay on and do A levels by the school plus all his friends were doing the same.
My daughter was always average or a little higher. She did take the tests as they were compulsory then but with no pressure from us, just additional help with maths. She didn't pass as was expected, but only by a few points. She went to her chosen local school, passed her A levels, did an advanced apprenticeship and has a great career.
I definately wouldn't be steering a Y4 child through the 11+, poor kid!

If he's average don't waste your money on tutors. Sign up to Atom Learning and work through physical past papers alongside Atom instead. The North London grammars are super selective and take the top 100 out of 3,000 applicants (Queen Elizabeth). No chance any child will pass that unless they were tutored from birth by super pushy parents.

Take a gentle paced approach, teach him exam concepts etc and do it yourself.

Kent is completely different though as it’s a grammar county.

so non grammars are secondary moderns with the top 25% missing

“average” DC can do very well at Kent normal (ie not the SS ) grammars - my DC got in by skin of teeth and has really flourished there, there’s a lot of bullshit talked about struggling to keep up at local grammars. Super selectives - which I think North London will be - I wouldn’t recommend. The non grammars will be likely a lot more decent than the sec moderns Kent has.

Similar experience here with one of my dcs. And I know of others this has happened to.

I understand selective schools in N London are very competitive op, so no I wouldn't push your ds through the 11+.

Nonsense. My ds attempted the 7+ coming from a country that does not even start school until 7.
My DS is very academic though, very driven and very self motivated. He is also a summer born. He wrote the 7+ and got into our top choice North London school. We did not tutor at all and as I said we came from a country that doesn't even do any sort of tutoring in schools.
Op going by the 7+ experience, if your ds is just average then I wouldn't attempt it until you get a full breakdown yourself of what's involved. It's intense, competitive and very stressful for a child that doesn't want that type of schooling.

"The North London grammars are super selective and take the top 100 out of 3,000 applicants (Queen Elizabeth)."

It is about 190 out of 3000 applicants, but probably top 250 - 300 can get it if lucky. Not as hard as indicated above.Yes the competition level is probably the highest in UK for boys school.

In my experience (upper KS2 teacher), the 11+ is absolutely brutal even for the super 'academic' children. The amount of stress they are put under/put themselves under is unreal. Combine that with the prep for SATS and it's just not fair.

In my experience ( as I say Kent) after the 11+ , taken 2nd week in September, the DCs cruise the rest of year 6 and get full marks in their SATS with no additional studying.