Late applications and grammar school waiting lists

[SannaMom21]

Hi there
Can someone please possibly give me some support and advice, my daughter did the 11+ exam for Birmingham grammar schools and she passed with the score of 213. But unfortunately we missed the deadline for school admissions which we are really stressed about because we really want her to get into a grammar school.
but I heard that the council look at late applicants after the 1st of March and we get the results of whether we got in or not on the 18th. We applied for 4 grammar schools(because we thought as shes passed she may still have a chance) and 2 state schools. We don’t actually mind which school they send her as long as it’s from one of 6 choices we made because we really don’t like the other schools in our area due to how they perform academically.
so on the 18th when we get the news of which school they’ve chosen, can we still call up the grammar schools and ask to put my daughter on the waiting list? But does that not put her lower down the waiting list because parents who got the letter on the 1st of March probably put their child in the waiting list?
is the order of the waiting list based on who calls in first to be put on or based on scores?

also do you know roughly where she’ll be on the waiting list with her score. The pass score was 200. And she’s on free school meals too and they did say the give more consideration to pupil premium students( students on free school meals)

lastly do you know any other people who still get into one of their 6 choices as a late applicant?

please could someone give me some info I’m really worried for my daughter

thank you

Waiting lists are based on admissions criteria.

In many areas you automatically go on the list for any school higher up your preferences.

The waiting list is always ordered by how well you meet the admissions criteria, not how long you have been on it. When you are added to the waiting lists, you will likely 'jump' other children on the list because you meet the criteria better. It is unlikely they will start offering waiting list places before the 18th, so you shouldn't be disadvantaged by that delay.

There is usually some movement on waiting lists as some people move, go private, get offered a more preferred school, so if you are fairly high up on the list you have a decent chance of getting a place, especially if you are on the lists for lots of schools. It will come down to how well you meet the admissions criteria. It sounds like they have some priority places for Pupil Premium, so you may fall into that category and be ranked higher as a result, but will depend on the individual schools' criteria.

A score of 213 with PP for Birmingham grammars is great - well done to your DD.

I don't know the ins and outs of the arrangements for late applicants and waiting lists, but presumably you've read carefully the admissions requirements for all the schools you're interested in, and you have seen the 'cut-off' scores at the bottom of this page, which will tell you the chances of a waiting list place for a PP student at any of the Birmingham grammars:

https://www.birminghamgrammarschools.org/content/results-and-offers

It really depends which grammars she named on the CAF, and to some extent whether she is in catchment for any of them...

For the ones that say ''All PP offered' on the cut-off scores it means that a place was offered at that school to all qualifying PP candidates on 1st March. So, if your DD has included SCGSG, Handsworth Girls or Five Ways, I would say she has a really excellent chance of a waiting list place at one of those schools as they didn't fill their PP quota on offers day. As waiting list places are awarded in the same priority order as standard places, a PP student will get a waiting list place above a non-PP student until the PP quota for that school is filled.

For Camp Hill Girls it's different as they filled all their PP quota from Cat 2 (PP in catchment) last year and only offered a small number of PP places from Cat 3 (PP out of catchment - this are offered based on merit) so the chances are slimmer there.

Waiting lists are ordered by same admissions criteria as the applications, not first come first served. However your chances of being offered a place at any of your preferences will be reduced if they are usually oversubscribed and few turn offered places down.

Thank you everyone that’s messaged.
i checked the website and it says for Sutton coalfield “ all PP offered “ what exactly does that mean? Does it mean all pupil premium students got an offer? Even from the waiting list?
but the schools I applied for is
king edwards hansworth for girls
Queen Mary high school for girls
sutton coalfield grammar school for girls
king edwards camp hill school for girls
and the last two are state schools

what do you think my chances are
she’s on pupil premium with a score of 213

also I’m not sure how the catchment area bit works, is it who lives closer is more likely to get an offer? If that’s the case my positive is B70 6RQ we’re quite close to King edwards handsworth

thank you

The stats win't include waiting list offers.

Sorry what do you mean?

thanks

Sutton coalfield has a maximum of 36 places for pupil premium children; I think that stat means all of those 36 were offered. They would have been offered to those who applied on time, who passed and were pupil premium, as the status is for offers on offer day in march.

It doesn't mean all PP children who applied got an offer. There may have been some on the waiting list, and some may have got in by the start of term.

All of your grammar choices are very likely to be filled on offer day, OP, but you should be pretty high on the waiting lists because of the PP.

It will be based only on first round offers made on National Offer Day.

We had a wobble last year about which school we'd chosen and DD was offered places at all the other schools during the summer due to PP status. It's stressful, but I wouldn't worry. Just make sure they all have your applications (or supplementary forms or whatever) and proof of PP status now! I'd go so far as to say that if the LEA really want to widen participation they would allocate a little time to help with this.

Thank you for sharing your experience, that does make me feel a little better knowing there’s people who do get in during the summer.
you said that I should get proof of pp now, what type of proof do you mean?
can I please ask what type of proof you showed and what other stuff you did to make the whole process easier for you
and I’m so sorry what do you mean by LEA ?

Sutton Coldfield

We were asked for either letters from primary school or the school to sign a form but this was a different education authority (LEA) so yours might be more efficient and have the information already.

Ah right, I do remember they asked us to fill out a pupil premium form twice and to get the primary school to fill out their section too. I think they might just use that for proof right ?

And you've done your application now, just late?

LEA - Local Education Authority

They are all state schools. Grammar schools are fully academically selective state schools. As opposed to state comprehensive schools, which admit either with no regard to aptitude or ability, or may admit a certain proportion of their intake through academic or other specific ability or aptitude, e.g.in sport or music.

For 2023 entry for Handsworth Girls, it says in the table on the page linked to by a pp,
Cat 5, 217, 7705m
(all PP offered)

This means that all (if there were any) on time Category 1 applicants (Looked After / Previously Looked After) were offered a place, all on time Category 2 (PP in catchment), all on time Category 3 (PP out of catchment), all Category 4 (in catchment, not LAC/PLAC or PP), plus some from Category 5 (out of catchment, not LAC/PLAC or PP), down to a score of 217, sub-ranking on distance 7705m (so not all out of catchment on 217 got in).

So for the current year, a non-PP score of 213 would not have secured a place, even if on time, but any PP applicant, applying from in or out of catchment, would have done.

The admissions policy for KEVI Handsworth Girls is here:

https://kingedwardvi.bham.sch.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Handsworth-Girls-2024-admissions-policy.pdf

Is your home address in one of the electoral wards listed? If so, this is your catchment grammar school and your DD will be Category 2, if you provided evidence of her PP status.

Every school has its own determined admissions policy - the Camp Hill one is like Handsworth's, but with different electoral wards in its catchment. Although it is also a KE Foundation member, Sutton Coldfield's is different (no catchment area, so no 'Category 2/3' or 'Catgory 4/5' differentiation). Queen Mary's has a slightly different policy again: no catchment area, but within the PP category, priority given to applicants attending a state primary school within Walsall.

Is your home address in one of the electoral wards listed? If so, this is your catchment grammar school and your DD will be Category 2, if you provided evidence of her PP status.

But that will only be a position on the waiting list, as the application was late, so requires another on-time applicant to decline their offer and op won't know either way until late March earliest.

True, but if Category 2 for waiting list purposes, it's a reasonable outlook re actually getting a place on the waiting list, once her application is ranked as anything other than 'off the bottom of the list', so to speak, come March 1st. No-one has a (legally) guaranteed place until then, anyway.

There does seem to be quite a bit of movement; had a quick trawl over on the elevenplusexams site and found this for Sutton Coldfield for 2023 entry - indicating a movement of 30 places by mid-June.
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?p=784950#p784950

@MarchingFrogs Is SCGSG a KE Foundation member? I understood that it and Bishop Vesey were part of the Consortium of Grammar Schools in Birmingham but not the KE Foundation, but may be wrong.

@PatriciaHolm Is it definitely that (all PP offered) doesn’t mean that all PP children who met the standard were offered a place? I have always taken it to mean that, as otherwise wouldn’t the minimum score to be offered a place under this category be given in the brackets, as is the case for some of the other schools? I realise that you are far more knowledgeable about admissions than me so happy to be corrected!

OP, well done to your DD. I agree with others who think that she stands a very good chance of a grammar school place from the waiting lists, and as others have said, the waiting lists will be ordered purely in order of the admissions criteria, not how long you have been on the list. Best of luck.

You're right, thank you - it's not a school run by the Foundation, though one sharing the same exam (although the arrangements changed a bit this year with the new West Midland consortium, havent they, in that there is now a much larger group all using the one exam?).

Re Sutton Coldfield's allocation report, I also read it as 'all qualified PP applicants offered', rather than, 'all 36 places available to PP applicants offered to PP (but there may or may not have been some more who were bumped down into the score order alone category)'.

The girl in the post I linked to on the other forum had a score of 219, so it looks like a PP score of 213 would have been waiting for one or more of the 36 priority PP place holders to give the place up. Chances might well be better at Handsworth, especially if Category 2.

@MarchingFrogs Yes, this year the Birmingham, Warwickshire, Walsall, Wolverhampton and Shropshire grammars are all using the same exam. It has gradually moved this way- when I did my 11+ over 20 years ago you effectively had 3 ‘chances’ to get into a grammar from where I lived in North Birmingham, as the King Edwards, Sutton Coldfield and Walsall grammars were all using different exams. Around 10 (?) years ago the Sutton Coldfield and KE grammars began the consortium and using the same exam, then I think for around 5 years or so Warwickshire has also been using the same exam, and the other LAs only this year (time frames all approximate!).

Yes that’s correct I had to do the late application form for those who missed the 31st of October deadline

Just as an aside though @SannaMom21, please accept the school you are offered on 1st March, even if it isn’t one on your preference list. This won’t affect your chances of getting into a grammar from the waiting list and will mean that you have a backup school for your DD in case she doesn’t get a grammar place (though I think it is very likely that she will).

Just as an aside though @SannaMom21, please accept the school you are offered on 1st March, even if it isn’t one on your preference list. This won’t affect your chances of getting into a grammar from the waiting list and will mean that you have a backup school for your DD in case she doesn’t get a grammar place (though I think it is very likely that she will).