Late applications and grammar school waiting lists

[SannaMom21]

Hi there
Can someone please possibly give me some support and advice, my daughter did the 11+ exam for Birmingham grammar schools and she passed with the score of 213. But unfortunately we missed the deadline for school admissions which we are really stressed about because we really want her to get into a grammar school.
but I heard that the council look at late applicants after the 1st of March and we get the results of whether we got in or not on the 18th. We applied for 4 grammar schools(because we thought as shes passed she may still have a chance) and 2 state schools. We don’t actually mind which school they send her as long as it’s from one of 6 choices we made because we really don’t like the other schools in our area due to how they perform academically.
so on the 18th when we get the news of which school they’ve chosen, can we still call up the grammar schools and ask to put my daughter on the waiting list? But does that not put her lower down the waiting list because parents who got the letter on the 1st of March probably put their child in the waiting list?
is the order of the waiting list based on who calls in first to be put on or based on scores?

also do you know roughly where she’ll be on the waiting list with her score. The pass score was 200. And she’s on free school meals too and they did say the give more consideration to pupil premium students( students on free school meals)

lastly do you know any other people who still get into one of their 6 choices as a late applicant?

please could someone give me some info I’m really worried for my daughter

thank you

Hi there
I see what your saying and that is the most appropriate. But my neighbours daughter two years ago passed her 11+ and applied on time but then the council gave her a completely different school that wasn’t on her form. So her parents decided they wouldn’t accept that school that was given and kept her at home when year7 started. I’m not sure if they did appeals but they did speak to the council several times saying that they will not send their daughter to any other school because she’s passed and she deserves to go to a grammar school. The parents also said that they will stop working so they can home school their daughter. After two months they basically won this case and the council gave a grammar school to them.
what do you think about that?

@SannaMom21 they would have got a place because either they won an appeal, or their daughter got to the top of the waiting list.

They will not have got a place just because they bugged the LA, the school or threatened to home school. That would be illegal, and anyone else above her on the waiting list could then have appealed and would have to be given a place.

Accept what you are offered and make sure you are on waiting lists, and you can appeal. Otherwise you risk having no school.

(I chair appeals panels and every year there are people who think they can get a place just by refusing the one they are offered. They cannot.)

Agree, she will have eventually got a place by waiting list or appeal. Not because they refused a place (did they list more than the one choice?) and pestered. Tbh you seem very relaxed considering your error may well mean your dd is not awarded a place at a school of your preference on March 1st , let alone at a grammar, and have to wait it out.

No I am very stressed about what will happen with my daughter and what school they will give her. But there’s nothing I can do right now. I listed 4 grammar school and 2 non selective schools that are good in my area. The other schools in my area do really bad and I know because my son is currently there and he’s not happy there and neither am I. And Im worried that they will give that school just because a sibling is already there. If they do I really don’t want to accept that school because we did that with my other son. He passed the 11 plus, we applied on time, they then gave him that really bad school, we accepted it but he’s in year 10 now and they still haven’t transferred him to another school. I know obviously you can change schools after year 10 but he was on the waiting list for all our 6 options and no change. Therefore I’m worried they will do that to my daughter now too

They won't look for sibling links at random schools. Curious as to how your ds did not qualify for a grammar place, or you appeal, if situation at the time was same.

He passed the 11 plus, we applied on time, they then gave him that really bad school, we accepted it but he’s in year 10 now and they still haven’t transferred him to another school.

Have you actually applied to move him?

with all that i’m wondering why on earth you didn’t apply for your daughter on time.

Have you applied for your son each year? Have you appealed for a place for him each year? Waiting lists aren't kept for years.

OP, please don’t listen to rumours or anecdotes and do listen to the people on this thread. Mumsnet is very knowledgeable about school admissions and can give you excellent advice. If your DS passed but didn’t get a grammar place, it must have been that he unfortunately didn’t meet the admissions criteria well enough (either by not scoring highly enough or not living close enough, depending on the school and its admissions criteria), or you listed the other school higher than the grammar on the form, which is saying that you preferred the other school. There is no ‘human’ element to school admissions, and no one looking at your form going “Oh, well she has a sibling at X school so we’ll just bung her there, never mind the grammar score”. It is all done by a computer and strictly in order of the admissions criteria.

As others have said, if the other child eventually got a grammar place then it must have been through the waiting list or appeal, not just badgering the LA until they gave in. Not having a school place will not affect your waiting list position at all, and will not advantage an appeal.

Please listen to what we are saying on here- people really do know their stuff. I went to one of the grammars you have listed and I know another poster on here has a DD at one, so there are also posters with local knowledge and knowledge of the schools who can help you.

Curiously op says on another thread this is her first time applying for secondary.

We definitely applied on time for my son but I didn’t know you have to apply for the waiting list every year so that may have been the case.
but thank you everyone for the advice honestly it has helped.

i did say in my first post that this is my first time applying for secondary but I genuinely just said that to get lots of advice from everyone on here, I’m very sorry if it creating inconvenience.

just to get one thing straight, so they definitely won’t base my child’s secondary school based on what school her sibling goes to?

thank you

Not if you don't list it and there are spaces at any of your preferences.

If the six are deemed full they will look at nearest with space, after in tine allocations are sorted.

Okay , so if that school is given to us, we should accept it right. Then call all our school choices and be asked to be put on the waiting lists( or it’ll probably go on automatically) but we’ll call just in case. And how much chance do you think we have by getting a place through the waiting list before school starts.

We definitely applied on time for my son but I didn’t know you have to apply for the waiting list every year so that may have been the case.

The waiting list will only be for year 7. After that it’s an in-year application to move schools.

I can’t believe you didn’t think in 3 years to find out how you might be able to move your son if you’re so unhappy with his school!

And that having gone through one admissions round, you would apply late for your second child!

WellHereIAmAgain: there are many parents out here that are not aware of how the admissions process works, including me. that’s why I came on here to get advice not to be criticised.
the reason why I applied late for my daughter is due to something I was going through that prevented me from being able to apply on time.
im grateful for all the advice and help that has been given under this thread but I’ll appreciate if you don’t judge what I’ve done, it’s my mistake. And I’m trying to fix it for my daughter.

ps: I don’t know how to reply to specific people that’s why I just copy and pasted the username.

thank you

Hey ladies,
As of late I’m just sooooo stressed. My DD passed her 11+ and scored 218. Unfortunately she’s not PP even though I’m a single mum but because of my income my D is not classed as PP. so in terms of the grammar school criteria other than passing I don’t think anything else works in our favour. Iv put Sutton girls as our first option king Edwards handsworth girls for our second choice and a state school for our Third choice I left the rest blank as I’m not happy with the other schools. Can someone please advice me if my daughter would even be considered as she’s not PP
Thank you ladies any advice at this point will be much appreciated

@zara17 does that not depend on the scores of others who apply for same schools, which will vary each year. What was the score required last year? Unfortunately not completing the full list of preferences may backfire if dc does not qualify for any of the ones you named, The LA will just allocate nearest school with a place after preferences are dealt with, probably an undersubscribed less desirable one.

She will be considered. Whether she will get a place depends on how well other applicants have performed in the test. Last year, she would not have got a place at Sutton Coldfield with that score but would just have scraped in at King Edwards.

As you haven't named a third choice, if your daughter fails to get a place at either of these schools she will be offered a place at the nearest school with places available. This is likely to be an unpopular school that could be some distance from home.

@zara17 as @prh47bridge says, based on recent years, your DD is unlikely to get a place at SCGSG on 1st March. There is a chance she will be lucky and receive a late offer from the waiting list.

For KE Handsworth Girls, she does have a chance of a place on 1st March (though the scores are close based on recent years) and if she doesn't receive an offer on 1st March, she has an excellent chance of a waiting list offer from this school.

I think @prh47bridge missed the bit where you said you did include a state school as your third choice. Was this a school very close to where you live, that your daughter is pretty much guaranteed a place at?

You have chosen not to fill your other allocations, which I would agree with @prh47bridge is a big risk, unless your DD lives so close to your one state school choice that she is basically a guaranteed a place there. You may not have liked the other local schools, but an undesirable school close to home is a much better option than an even less desirable school at the other end of the borough, which is what your daughter might end up with if she doesn't get one of the three choices on her list and your undesirable local schools fill all their places with those that at least put them on the form.

When you get your offer of a place at a school on 1st March, make sure you accept the place, even if you are not happy with it (unless you wish to consider homeschooling or private school.) You will still be on the waiting list for higher rank schools (and you can ask to be added to the waiting list for other preferred schools) and if you reject the offer, the local authority has no obligation to find your daughter an alternative school at all.

All that being said, I think your DD is likely to be offered a place at Handsworth Girls before September 2024.

I think @prh47bridge missed the bit where you said you did include a state school as your third choice.

Yes, I did miss that bit. Sorry.

Hey,
you guys have been amazing thank you so much for your response. It’s just such a stressful time for me and it’s annoying she’s not PP even thought I’m a single mum and working as a teaching assistant. I was advised by many ppl about not filling all 6 places and I forgot to mention that Iv out two state schools and 2 grammar schools so intoal 4 schools. Yes sutton girls is extremely competitive to get in and I know that on the 1st I may not get any of the grammar schools. The state school I have put down is within my catchment area. Any other information is more than welcomed thanks once again

Hey,
just thought I’d another question, the school that my daughter is at my daughter was the only girl that had passed and the school that I worked at a girl passed with a score of 225. So so far the children that I know that have passed the 11+ are boys. The grammars school I have put down are girls however I know there’s sooo many other primary schools in Birmingham that girls did pass. This may be irrelevant information but at this point I’m holding on to any hope lol.
I was told that the exam board for the 11+ test for 2023 sep was GL which is alot more harder and in previous years it was CEM.
is this true??
also from both school the cut of scores is not 218 my daughters score is it likely for the cut off scores to be high again as every year does the score go high
I high I make sense with the above and I’m not waffling on

Whether the test is harder doesn't really matter, except that, if true, it means the cut-off score for getting a place will be lower than in previous years. But where the cut-off will be depends entirely on how other applicants performed. The cut-off score can go up or down. If there are a lot of high-scoring applicants, the cut-off score will be high. If there are few high-scoring applicants, the cut-off score will be low.

@zara17 I don’t quite understand your comment about girls / boys. Are you hoping that, because anecdotal evidence from two schools suggests that fewer girls are passing than boys, it will follow that this will be the case with candidates from all schools and therefore most of the girls will get places? I don’t think that is how it will pan out! I might have misunderstood your point though.

CEM and GL tests are different, but it would not be fair to assume GL is ‘harder’. Also, even if candidates found last year’s test harder than their older siblings/friends found the previous years’ tests, the scores are ‘standardised’ (Normal distribution) and age adjusted so any score can be reasonably compared with previous years. So, a student scoring 218 this year can be assumed to be similarly able to a student scoring 218 last year, even if the test format and difficulty were slightly different.

In terms of the required scores to get a place in a Birmingham grammar increasing year on year, at first glance the ‘cut-off’ scores at the bottom of this page (https://www.birminghamgrammarschools.org/content/results-and-offers) have indeed increased slightly for the non-catchment schools (BVGS, SCGSG) and the ‘less popular’ KE grammars which have a lot of places available to students outside catchment (Handsworth Girls, Handsworth Boys, Aston.) However, I suspect some of this is because catchment areas for KE grammars are still relatively new and it has taken parents (and tutors / tuition centres) a while to adjust to the change and to make sensible choices on the CAF. For example, in the first year since catchments were introduced, lots of parents mistakenly failed to include Aston and the Handsworth schools on their children’s CAFs if they scored <224, thinking 224 would be required for these schools. This caused a temporary change to these schools’ required minimum scores (which you don’t see on this table.)

Of course, there is also a natural fluctuation in popularity between the schools, and there might also be an increase in total applicants, which would mean that the minimum score would go up a bit. I would also expect the fact that this year, for the first time, there was a single test for the 17 grammars in the West Midlands will have an impact, as people might consider schools in different local authorities now they don’t need to take more than one test.

I thought if the test was harder this year then obviously less then candidates would have passed, then the cut off score will go lower.