Secondary application from abroad

[ReturnfromtheStars]

Hello Mumsnetters, hopefully someone has been in a similar situation or is very knowledgable about the admission system and can help.

I am not from the UK originally and was hoping for my 2 children to be able to
experience life in my home country. After careful planning, we moved countries
in 2022 August. We did all the legwork to get the kids into the education
system in my home country and now have to do this in reverse in the UK.

Here comes the question: after several phone discussions with the School Admissions Office, we were assured our child’s secondary application will be accepted by using our UK address and putting no primary school on the form. So we filled the form in and sent it off (online) well before the 31st October deadline.

However, on 1st November my husband received a phone call stating we have to put our overseas address on the form, and the application is now deemed incorrect and won’t be accepted as an application on time, but instead will be treated as a late application.

What can we do? I am aware, the authority has to place our child somewhere, but despite all the positives of our move, our child also had considerable disruption and it would be preferable to go to a good school in walking distance with friends. Considering we applied with the correct form on time, following advice from the Admissions Office it sounds like a case of “machine says no” so I would really like to be able to use the correct words to get the message across.

Generally you can’t apply until you’re actually in the country, in your main residence. You then apply and are allocated a school. If you want a particular school you’ll need to look at things like catchment areas and how popular/oversubscribed the school is.

Thanks @OzziePopPop !

We didn't think we could, until the admissions people told us we actually can, but they are now contradicting themselves. We adjusted our return to UK date based on their advice as we could have returned earlier if needed, although I do beleive it is best for the children to switch schools in September, at the start of the school year.

I have found a guidance document for Surrey (sadly we don't live in Surrey) who describe our exact case on page 4, 4.1/a and again, it seems that we followed correct procedure, although they do say the local authority can decide.

https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/5105/Guidance-on-admission-of-children-from-overseas-V3.pdf

"Applications for admission as part of a normal admissions round must be made to the local authority where the child lives. As children living abroad do not have a home local authority, their parent will not ordinarily be able to apply until the child has returned/arrived in the United Kingdom. However, exceptions may apply and it will be up to each local authority to determine whether or not a family can apply from abroad, in accordance with their policy on applications from children living overseas.
(...)
Satisfactory evidence of a return/arrival to the United Kingdom should include a combination of the following, although this list may not be exhaustive:
• A written statement from the parent(s) of their intention to return to/enter the United Kingdom, giving their reasons and an expected date - we weren't told about this, but easy to produce
• Termination of a work contract abroad
• Sale/notice of rental of property abroad
• Copy of work contract within the United Kingdom - we have this
• Confirmation of study arrangements within the United Kingdom
• Confirmation of travel arrangements - again easy to have, we haven't bough the plane tickets yet but why not"

Even clearer:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children

Processing school applications from parents moving to England

Admission authorities cannot, for example:

• require the applicant has a permanent home address either in the UK or overseas before processing an application

If a local authority refuses to co-ordinate an application for a school place from parents currently living in another country but moving or returning to England, an admission authority for the school would have significant difficulty in being able to lawfully apply its admission arrangements..

Applications in the normal admissions round and late applications

If an application is made from another country, local authorities should consider the application as adequate proof of an intention to move or return to the area and include it within the local authority co-ordinated process.

Can I quote the above from gov.uk? It's still only advise, but I like the wording of "the school would have significant difficulty in being able to lawfully apply its admission arrangements."

Is it better to phone or email? We can't make a phone call together as my husband is in the UK, whereas I'm not.

Sorry forgot to add we are well aware of the normal way of the admission process and are simply trying to get into the catchment school in the usual secondary application process, just with the twist of the child not yet living there.

Surely, other people move before secondary too? Even if not countries, just counties. If it's a planned move I would assume they apply for school in the new place.

Honestly, you can try. We moved into Somerset so things may vary (they absolutely do between areas and counties of the UK/GB) but we absolutely were not allowed to apply till we were in our home and could prove it. Exceptions do apply for people in the forces etc but didn’t apply to us.

Try it, worst they’ll say is no! Also, if you don’t like or want the allocated school, accept anyway! Then go on the waiting list for the school you want. Never decline or you can be left with nothing.

How did it turn out for you, are the kids happy in their new schools? Somerset sounds
lovely, so a great move for the family 🙂

Thanks for the advice about accepting an allocated school, this happened to us for primary, and turned out well in the end: we got a school a bit further away but still accessible by bus and a great school.

It's just that kids are at a bit more mentally fragile age at secondary (sounds weird to say, but I'm a lot more worried about bullying in secondary), but I hope it will turn out well in the end.

Wait, did your dc only go to school in your home country for 1 year 2022-2023?

@GeeFunnyBunny they went to school here 2022/2023 and also started the 2023/2024 school year in September, which will run till June (the summer holiday is longer)

Planning to start 2024/2025 in UK, England, when one child will be year 7 which is the first year of secondary in England. I'm not opposed to starting a bit earlier to see friends at the end of year 6 (provided it's even possible to get back into their old primary school), but would ideally like them to finish their current school year properly and move during the holiday.

Do you have anything in writing from them re using your UK address even though you weren't resident? That could help convince them / help at appeal maybe?

"after several phone discussions with the School Admissions Office, we were assured our child’s secondary application will be accepted by using our UK address"

@ReturnfromtheStars As a pp said, if you have this in writing it will help you at an appeal.

"However, on 1st November my husband received a phone call stating we have to put our overseas address on the form, and the application is now deemed incorrect and won’t be accepted as an application on time, but instead will be treated as a late application."

The forms usually make it clear that you have to use your current residential address, not an address you plan to move to. If you have a screenshot of the form, showing the wording, it may help.

"I have found a guidance document for Surrey (sadly we don't live in Surrey)"

This won't help. Every area handles these situations differently. You need to use the procedures from your home area.

"Admission authorities cannot, for example:
require the applicant has a permanent home address either in the UK or overseas before processing an application"

This won't help. The local authority have processed your application and found that you have not used your current residential address. Fom their perspective, this is potentially fraudulent, so they have rejected your application and asked you to correct it. They haven't refused to process it.

"If a local authority refuses to co-ordinate an application for a school place from parents currently living in another country but moving or returning to England, an admission authority for the school would have significant difficulty in being able to lawfully apply its admission arrangements."

Again, they have not refused it. They have asked you to correct it. You need to resubmit it using your current address in your home country. They will then process it. When you move, you can update the address.

"Surely, other people move before secondary too? Even if not countries, just counties. If it's a planned move I would assume they apply for school in the new place."

Yes, but they apply using their current address, then update it when they move. My local authority would only accept the new address after contracts are signed.

In your case, if you are moving back to a home you own, is it currently empty or let out? Are you paying council tax?

If I were you, I would phone the local authority for a chat with the admissions team, and ask their advice.

Hi @TeenDivided sadly no written evidence about the admissions office telling us to use UK address, everything was discussed on the phone, although apparently phone calls were recorded and my husband has the dates and times.

@maplesirrup , yes your interpretation is my husband's interpretation too, that they are processing the application, just with the abroad address, which they are now asking for.

However, I found further parts on the same website:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children#establishing-home-address

Establishing ‘home’ address

(...) admission authorities will need an address in order to fully apply their admission arrangements and rank applicants for their oversubscription criteria.
(...)

Admission authorities could ask prospective movers or returners where they will be living (see paragraph 2.5 of the school admissions code). This might include whether parents:

• own or rent a property in the area to which they intend to return or move

Would the above be accepted? We are renting out our house, which we are giving notice on for 30th April, would that be enough proof do you think?

• not paying council tax, as paying it in current country, my husband temporarily lives with his sibling who kindly let him stay but is in another local authority
• Will be paying council tax for our address again of course from May onwards

My husband is calling again today as soon as they open, so fingers crossed it was just an oversight / misunderstanding.

I would also like to know, what does permanently living mean? My child lives permanently at her home address, and moved temprarily overseas (for 2 years). Her permanent address is our house.

In my home country, there is even a term "permanent address" vs "temporary address" which is recorded on your address card. E.g. a student living in uni accomodation could easily have their parents address as their permanent and their student flat as their temporary address. But seems "permanent address" means a slightly different thing in the UK.

Would the above be accepted? We are renting out our house, which we are giving notice on for 30th April, would that be enough proof do you think?

@ReturnfromtheStars After you have given notice you may be able to submit that as evidence of your planned move. But you can't expect them to accept it now - what if you change your mind? What if the family in your home are also applying for a school place? They may not have any idea of your intention and, even if they did, they presumably have no other address they can use. This is why only your children's current residential address is acceptable.

) admission authorities will need an address in order to fully apply their admission arrangements and rank applicants for their oversubscription criteria

Yes, but they can do this with your abroad address. If the policy is distance based, you will be at the end of the waiting list, but you can update your address when you move, which will push you up the waiting list

To be fair @maplesirrup I am more thanghappy to give notice now, it is another worry of mine anyway, that what is we can't move back for whatever reason.

Unlikely I know, but still a fear. We very openly discussed at the time of renting our house the plan to return, so the family renting it have unoficcially always known our return date - I would also rather if the renters found other home (they said they plan to move abroad away from the UK, but who knows plans change) and left early than having them in the house until last minute.

Criteria for a valid address varies from one LA to another if currently overseas, and circumstance's ie.if on a military placement. Some have a window to update address and still be considered "on time". Is your uk address empty?

Currently in the eyes of the council its your tenants home not yours.
Permanent home is the house they live in... so not the house you own in your case

Unfortunately the process is based on now (10 months ahead!) Not your intentions. Moving house for Secondary is tricky in England.

Does your council have a later deadline for house moves?

Ah see it is rented at the moment, usually that means you cannot use it as no guarantee you will move there by next September. You can use your overseas address but may miss out on your preferences if distance is a tie break criteria.

Thanks for all the discussion guys!

The phone call happenned and did not go well :(

This is how my husband told me it went:

• Local authority have our address down as "overseas". <-- this is due to them changing it behind our backs, we applied with our UK address.

• If we were to change the address to UK addres, it will count as late application.

😥

Ironically I finally found the part in their own admission procedure which applies to us as it would / should be in our favour:

What if I move to another local authority?

• This is not us, as we aren't moving to or from another authority, we are moving from another country

Children of UK service personnel and crown servants

• We are not crown servants, but in all gov.uk advice, UK nationals returning from abroad (we are all UK nationals) are lumped together with the crown servants group.
• XXXX County Council will use the address at which the child will live when applying the admission oversubscription criteria, as long as the parent provides some evidence of their intended address
• The catch here is that we did not (yet) provide evidence of intended address, as my husband specifically went through the application with them on the phone line by line, asked what else we need to know and they said it was correct and nothing else required.

I'm trying to summarise it in a consice email now to have something in writing with dates and advice given as well as the gov.uk a county specific online info.

It surely can't be right the authority just changed our address withouth our knowledge or consent and won't change it back withouth marking us as late application.

Assuming you are moving to England, there is some incorrect advice on this thread.

If someone applies from overseas in the normal admissions round, the LA should consider the application as adequate proof that the parents intend to move to the area and process the application normally. They should not refuse the application simply because the applicant does not currently live in the area. If the LA refuses to process the application, the LA (as admission authority) and any schools that are their own admission authority will not be able to apply their admission arrangements lawfully.

The LA can decide which address to use for processing an overseas application. If the parents own or rent a UK address, it is open to the LA to use that address. However, it is not compulsory that they do so.

At this stage, you should be clear with the LA that you relied on their advice when submitting your application. The fact you didn't get it in writing is a problem, but make sure you get everything in writing now. If you have a phone call with the LA, send them an email immediately afterwards setting out your understanding of the conversation. You should also be clear with the LA that they should not treat you as a late application. They can process the application using your overseas address if they wish, but you applied on time in good faith so there is no lawful basis on which they can treat your application as late. In all honesty, treating you as a late applicant is unlikely to make any difference to the outcome if they insist on using your overseas address so don't stress about this too much, but it annoys me when LAs behave like this.

Having seen your update, what they are saying makes more sense. However, if they agree to use your UK address as per your application but then treat you as a late applicant, that would be Wednesbury unreasonable in my view and would give you a very strong case for appeal.

@PuttingDownRoots
Does your council have a later deadline for house moves?

Good question! I'll read through the documents again, but I haven't yet found anything about a later deadline. They did told my husband about a deadline, which they called an exceptional late date and wrote the below:

You have mentioned you may be able to move XXX to the UK sooner however as explained if this is not before the exceptional late date (27th November) it would still be the overseas address that is used.

The above is an email my husband asked them to send after the phone call where they informed him that they are putting overseas as address. In the latest phone call today it turned out that even if child moves to UK before end of November (which would be madness and practically very difficult) the application would still count as late, so what's the point??

Honestly it feels someone hates my poor innocent child just because I am not from the UK originally 😥

But I take the point onboard that it is equally hard (if not harder) for people moving house which seems very very unfair. I wouldn't be half as disappointed if we didn't discuss this all well in advance: discussions with the authority started back in May 2023.

This is amazing advice, thanks you @prh47bridge ! And yes, we agreed not to stress, it is one of those things, we are super lucky and privileged to be even be able to move back and forth, but as you mentioned it's annoying as we followed advice.

treating you as a late applicant is unlikely to make any difference to the outcome if they insist on using your overseas address so don't stress about this too much, but it annoys me when LAs behave like this.

This is very reassuring. I don't understand enough of the application process, to understand what goes on behind the scenes. Yes, moving to England.

Honestly it feels someone hates my poor innocent child just because I am not from the UK originally

@ReturnfromtheStars you may feel that way, but if you were moving from another part of England the procedure would be the same, so try to be objective and factual when dealing with the local authority.

If you are happy to share the name of the local authority you're dealing with, you might get more tailored advice.

@maplesirrup that is equally unfair. However, I do have friends who moved within the UK and after LOADS of back and forth were treated fairly and could apply as normal at new authority. So I would urge all parents moving to try applying in the new authority too if it's a planned move.

Also I was very tired when I posted 😂I appreciate all the lovely advice.