Secondary application from abroad

[ReturnfromtheStars]

Hello Mumsnetters, hopefully someone has been in a similar situation or is very knowledgable about the admission system and can help.

I am not from the UK originally and was hoping for my 2 children to be able to
experience life in my home country. After careful planning, we moved countries
in 2022 August. We did all the legwork to get the kids into the education
system in my home country and now have to do this in reverse in the UK.

Here comes the question: after several phone discussions with the School Admissions Office, we were assured our child’s secondary application will be accepted by using our UK address and putting no primary school on the form. So we filled the form in and sent it off (online) well before the 31st October deadline.

However, on 1st November my husband received a phone call stating we have to put our overseas address on the form, and the application is now deemed incorrect and won’t be accepted as an application on time, but instead will be treated as a late application.

What can we do? I am aware, the authority has to place our child somewhere, but despite all the positives of our move, our child also had considerable disruption and it would be preferable to go to a good school in walking distance with friends. Considering we applied with the correct form on time, following advice from the Admissions Office it sounds like a case of “machine says no” so I would really like to be able to use the correct words to get the message across.

@maplesirrup good advice about being factual, I'll save the dramatics for Mumsnet 😉

If its not too late I'd just lodge an appeal as a back up. If legally you was in the right you would win the appeal surely

@prh47bridge would this work as a follow-up email after today's phone call? Thanks a lot for all the advice!

Good morning,

Thank you for the ongoing discussions about our child’s XXX secondary school application.

We would like to request that XXX’s is application is treated as on time and her UK address is used when processing the application. We applied on time in good faith and there is no lawful basis on which the application can be treated as late.

More specifically please see details below:

17th May 9:57 am, phone call from parent to LA
XXX (father) received advice from LA on the phone on that UK address can be used on the application form. This is in line with government advice.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children#processing-school-applications-from-parents-moving-to-england
If someone applies from overseas in the normal admissions round, the LA should consider the application as adequate proof that the parents intend to move to the area and process the application normally. They should not refuse the application simply because the applicant does not currently live in the area. If the LA refuses to process the application, the LA (as admission authority) and any schools that are their own admission authority will not be able to apply their admission arrangements lawfully.

Father is also advised about the following LA criteria that needs to be fulfilled

• Address in England is required for application
• Parent needs to have employment in England
• Child will not lose a year and no need to take any exams to get into the correct year group

15 Aug 2023, 12:51, phone call from parent to LA
Parent asks for further clarification, LA offers to send links in email.

15 Aug 2023, 12:59, email from LA to parent
The LA has provided links to (father) in email. The links don’t have specific advice for any UK nationals returning to England, only for UK service personnel and crown servants. However, as gov.uk pages treat all UK national parents moving to England the same as UK crown servants or UK military families, we in good faith accepted the below paragraph:
XXX County Council will use the address at which the child will live when applying the admission oversubscription criteria, as long as the parent provides some evidence of their intended address. <--this feels like the trickly bit as we did not provide evidence (as I only just read the links now...)

15 Aug 2023, 13:12, phone call from parent to LA
Parent has inquired about the need to move child into primary within LA (and England) before applying to secondary. Parent was advised having a primary school is not a requirement to fill out the application form.
La has confirmed it is sufficient for the child to move to the LA prior to September 2024.

16 Aug 2023, 13:11, phone call from parent to LA
Parent has filled in the application form and the LA was kind enough to go through the form with him. LA has advised to unclick a couple of checkboxes which the parent complied with.
Parent asked if any attachments are required, and the LA advised no attachments required. <--this might help with the above tricky bit

(I need my husband to clarify the last bits, but essentially)
01 Nov 2023 phone call and email from LA to parent
LA informs parent overseas address will be used when processing the application. Please note that parent has not supplied an overseas address during the whole process as it is not relevant. Parent has supplied UK address as per previous advice. The form had a UK adress on, when it was submitted.

02 Nov 2023 phone call from parent to LA
LA confirms they have the address as overseas. Please note again, that this change was made by the LA without our agreement or consent. We have put our UK address down in good faith before the deadline in line with previous advice.
LA also informs parent that if parent was to change the address to UK address, the application will be treated as late. We would like to contest this, as to repeat, the parents applied on time in good faith following LA and government advice to use their UK address. There is no lawful basis on which the application can be treated as late, or the address can be changed without consent.

We are of course happy to provide proof of our UK address, can you please let us know the form of proof required? <-- Should we ask this, or offer something specific ourselves? If so what?

It's too soon to appeal. You can only appeal after you have had an application for a school rejected, which will be after March 1st 2024 in this case.

Do we need to lodge the appeal now or after school places are allocated in April?
Or a complaint?
What would actually work?

Ok, thanks maplesirrup for clearing that up and that I was wrong with April. At least March is sooner.

Honestly it feels someone hates my poor innocent child just because I am not from the UK originally
Or maybe its just that the system for applying to schools is complex, open to abuse and the LA admissions team are being very cautious.
You made a choice to move abroad, your DH is living back in the UK, you don't want to disrupt your children’s education even though you already have by moving abroad in the first instance.
To be completely honest, I don’t think any applications from people living overseas should be accepted without absolute proof that they’re moving back to the UK. You don’t have that proof. You haven’t got a property you can move in to for certain - your current tenants may well refuse to move out so you’d have to go through the courts to get them evicted. You haven’t arranged flights home. Your DH isn't even living in the same LA as the school you want to select.

@ReturnfromtheStars Yes, that looks good. The only thing I will say is that they can change the address without your consent if, for example, they think you are applying from a false address. In that situation, they don't need your consent to move to your actual address. However, they can't treat the application as late.

Thanks again for all the help and advice. We sent off a follow up email and will take it from here.

Is this too aggressive? I feel like banging my head against a brick wall. I would prefer phone calls but those didn't help either.

Finally a reply arrived from Admissions:

Thank you for contacting LA regarding your application for a school place for (child).

As you currently reside overseas, this address must be used for the purposes of processing your application. Page 10 of LA guide for parents (link) gives details of what is accepted as a home address.

The application states that you are expected to arrive in the UK in (date before September). The address will be updated on the application at this stage.

Kind regards

My draft reply (the one that may be too agressive)

Hello XXX,

Thank you for your reply.

Please note that your current advice directly contradicts the advice given to (father) on the phone on 17th May 9:57 am and several more follow-up phone calls. It was confirmed for him that the UK address will be used. This led to child’s family choosing their return to the UK date as (date before September).

You are giving contradictory information compared to multiple prior phone calls (17th May 9:57 am, 15 Aug 2023, 13:12, 01 Nov 2023 13:10 and 01 Nov 2023 15:24). Please also note that we are not moving from another LA, but another country, therefore different guidance applies to us. This is also what the LA admissions team has informed us previously.

Can I please ask what is the reason for suddenly changing the information provided and at such a late date? If what you are currently writing is the correct information, it should have been provided to us in the multiple phone calls between parent and admissions team prior to the application deadline.

However, using current address instead of future address also contradicts government advice at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children#establishing-home-address where it is stated, that:

• Admission authorities could ask prospective movers or returners where they will be living (see paragraph 2.5 of the school admissions code). This might include whether parents:
• own or rent a property in the area to which they intend to return or move

Finally, in the LA guidance document quoted in your email (link) it is also established on Page 11 that LA will use the address at which the child will live when applying the admission oversubscription criteria, as long as the parent provides some evidence of their intended address. The Page 11 guidance is for Children of UK service personnel and crown servants, which is the same group that is treated the same way as returners to the UK in gov.uk advice at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children.

Kind Regards,
pissed off parents (POPs)

So it seems the LA's issue is not asking for proof of address, the issue is with the address full stop. @prh47bridge sorry to quote you again, it just that you are very knowledgable.

I understand from you, that if the LA thinks that the address is fraudelent they can change it to overseas. However, it seems they beleive the future address cannot be used at all (with or without proof) and current address must be used.

This also contradicts what they previously said btw.

Do we keep banging on our rights using a future address?

Also just out of interest, for people moving withing England, could they really not use future address, even of proof of purchase or rental agreement available? What is your take on that?

Thanks again!

@ReturnfromtheStars If I was you I would accept that you have no evidence of the phonecalls you mention, and consider them a dead horse not worth flogging. You can mention your interpretation of the calls, and how upset you are at having been (apparently) mistaken, but you can't expect the LA to justify something for which there is no evidence.

Once past that bit, the second part of the letter is ok.

Thanks @maplesirrup for reading this long email :) There is evidence though (not in our hands) as apparently all phone calls are recorded. We already asked for a transcript (not for all, just a very recent one). The asking for transcript was conveniently overlooked in the reply, so good shout.

But again, you are right, it is also important to concentrate on the parts we can change.

@ReturnfromtheStars Your only right to use a future address is that the LA said you could. Having said that, they must stick to it. However, in general, they can refuse to use a future address unless the parents are service personnel or crown servants returning to the UK.

All clear, thanks both!
@maplesirrup, thanks I flipped the email around based on your advice and cut down the part with dates to the bare minimum, instead asking for the transcript again.

@prh47bridge , thanks so if we can get hold of the transcript / recording, that would solve the case.

@ReturnfromtheStars you should be able to get all the transcripts using a Subject Access Request (SAR). There will be a SAR policy on the LA's website.

Amazing! Thanks @maplesirrup . another thing I didn't know that we have to use SAR specifically and not just ask for it.

The information Commissioner's Office has advice on making a Subject Access Request:

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/your-right-to-get-copies-of-your-data/preparing-and-submitting-your-subject-access-request/

How to make a subject access request?The easiest way to make a subject access request is using our online service. It takes about 10 minutes. It helps you write your request then sends it to the organisation by email....

I understand your frustration but there are so many what ifs.
What if your tenants don't move out and you need to start eviction process? Then you have nowhere to return to in the uk.
What if your tenants had a year 6 child and were also using that address for secondary application.

You don't live at your uk address. It is not your home. It is currently somebody else's home.

I don't know the ins and outs of the admissions procedure, and they vary from LA to LA. I do hope it works out in the end for your dc.

You need to look this up for your county, but I THINK its after the results come out, but double check.

Sorry, I don't have time to read through all the reply. As far as I know, most of the council required an address proof by early Dec. So your family have to arrive UK by that time then your application should not be considered late.

Indeed, you have applied on time.

This is a real situation from my friend, they relocated from HK to Kingston.

We applied from overseas & were told to use our overseas address. DC got in anyway.

Sorry to jump in but I think you're misunderstanding some of the things you're quoting.
I have no experience in this but just reading through as a layman.

However, using current address instead of future address also contradicts government advice at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-children#establishing-home-addresss** where it is stated, that:*

• Admission authorities could ask prospective movers or returners where they will be living (see paragraph 2.5 of the school admissions code). This might include whether parents:
• own or rent a property in the area to which they intend to return or move

The key word here, to me, is could. They could ask you where you will be living and give examples of where they may reside in the future. You've already informed them of your intentions to move and where you will be living.
I'm unsure how the paragraph is interpreted as using current address is fraudulent.

Secondly,

Finally, in the LA guidance document quoted in your email (link) it is also established on Page 11 that LA will use the address at which the child will live when applying the admission oversubscription criteria, as long as the parent provides some evidence of their intended address. The Page 11 guidance is for Children of UK service personnel and crown servants, which is the same group that is treated the same way as returners to the UK in gov.uk advice at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/schools-admissions-applications-from-overseas-childrenn**.*

You're not applying under oversubsciption criteria, are you? This is just a standard application.
You're also not service personnel.

As I said this is just my interpretation of the text knowing nothing of the process

@user96327888 You are correct that the LA could use a future address but they don't have to. However, there is a misunderstanding in your second point. Oversubscription criteria apply whenever there are more applications than places. They apply to standard applications unless the school is undersubscribed.

Gotcha! But do we know if this school is oversubscribed?