Really basic computer skills not taught at school.. why?

[Nationalcurricumum]

Hi all
First post
18 years+ a secondary music teacher and long-time Mumsnet silent browser. have signed up today because the old TES website has (stupidly) barred teachers from discussing things Doh!..... Anyhoo...... I have spoken to our schools IT teachers and it appears that REALLY basic everyday computer keyboard shortcuts which will save people hours and hours by improving workflow etc.... Simple ones like copy + paste, (CTL C CTL V), (which certain lazy students will use extensively at Uni... ie. while plagiarising vast tracts of others work!😅); save (CTL S) are unbelievably NOT taught in the National curriculum from KS2.
All children need to know some of these they are a universal skill. Our IT teachers say there is not enough time in their curriculum to learn these (actually USEFUL for once!) skills while they teach coding and other programming skills (Cart before the horse IMO) I am hitting a defensive brick wall fighting for my school to teach these basics as I care about my kids and their actual life-skills not just regurgitation of knowledge.
This term I have again had to teach my year 9s ! (ie. 13 year olds who are a whizz on a smartphone) (during a music lesson !!) how to press CTL S, etc etc... rather than spending a minute scrolling menus with a mouse. or touchpad (As a music teacher I am not a fan of the narrow Govian EBacc curriculum but wont go into that here). So, any parents, I.T. English, functional skills educators etc etc out there have an opinion on this IMO gaping hole in school education which will improve childrens use of computers immeasurably that can actually be used in real life and life-long? Anyone have thoughts or an explanation for this?

Bit hard to read but yeah l get your drift.

I used to thesch GVSE and A level Dt coursework. Students would arrive in Yr 10 not knowing how to use any Officr programmes or even how to send an email.

The first 4 lessons of coursework were how to use Word, Poserpoknt and Excel.

Soz I used italics quote marks assuming they would work and it came out garbled coding ironically 😂, have now removed them, hope easier to read.

Suppose schools can’t be responsible for teaching absolutely everything and parents are there to teach a lot at home? Why is ir up to the school in your opinion to teach this?

Very ironic indeed - perhaps brush up on your own computer skills 😂

I do partly agree.
I think touch typing should be taught at primary.

The old ECDL (European Computer Driving License) covered this kind of thing and word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access. That was useful for all (though too basic for some).
Teaching computer science is not the same subject as basic IT skills.

Because these are workplace basics and it’s like not teaching addition and multiplication.

@Anetra yes exactly. Yr 7 DD knows how to use PowerPoint, excel and word because we taught her in Yr 5/6.
@Nationalcurricumum Currently they have 2 x computer science lessons per week and homework is done on computer so surely that is developing their I.T skills?
Fundamentally though I would say that tate schools don't have time/the teachers/resources to teach these things?

I'm going to use 'Poserpoknt' from now on. Thanks for that.

While I have little idea what is taught in Computing/IT lessons nowadays, I do note that children are often happy to throw themselves into most things digital, but do lack some skills that I would hope were basic and can be worryingly uncritical (and they are children). That's how things are though. I've taught Daughternova some Office skills and so on, including PP, but have to admit that I often find myself searching when wanting to do something I used to know when the menus were different.

My three all went to local comp and were all taught good computer skills, including basic programming and coding!

My kids know every shortcut there is. I'm surprised if many don't! But if you say not it takes what, two minutes to hand out a cheat sheet?
And any student who thinks they can copy and paste for uni work are in for a surprise as I bet most are now run through a plagerism programme! It's in built in my home three year old writing program (as well as grammar checks).

You are being ridiculous. The teachers are teaching computing not IT.

They are NOT universal skills, they are not even the same across windows and mac. THey are not even skills really.

Who knows what operating system kids will use in the future. Secondary schools are already having to teach how to use a mouse because so many teens have only used touch.

I started programming before windows existed, before computers had a mouse and when floppy disks were actually floppy.

A mite rude sashh saying i am being ridiculous, are posters always this patronising and garrulous on here? if so i dont think I will bother much. Anyway ill give it a go

So to respond to your comment however.
I was taught early computing BEFORE floppy disks or PCs were available around 1975ish I guess...ha ha. so what is your point?
Yes Computing is not IT per se but they usually use a keyboard to type... or am I missing something?
I am an actual teacher of long experience (one who still cares deeply), teaching actual children, who go into the actual world and workplace who get jobs at everyday real-life companies who use these actual shortcuts. (Not programming theory which a tiny minority of my kids will ever will use) These students are actually doing this on actual Windows 11 on actual Standard keyboards using an actual universally recognised music software that uses all the basics like CTL S; CTL Z Incidentally as used in every department of our (Ofsted Outstanding) state school by 1700+ real life children and over 100 actual teaching and support staff. So why is this genuine concern of mine ridiculous? These basics should be like teaching kids how to tie their laces ... it makes life easier and more efficient. Not sure why you and Computing teachers are baulking at this tiny extra useful bit of real-life skill? (see NC snip attached seeking competent confident students ready for the workplace)

This as mondaytosunday states takes 2 minutes and a cheat sheet to learn I use these shortcuts all the time day in day out we are supposed to be teaching learning skills workflow, all the Pro (non academic computer users) use shortcuts all the time. I too cannot believe they have not been taught this.

OK mac is CMD S etc but you surely get the drift about actual efficacy and utility (or maybe you dont?) We spend endless hours teaching maths that will never be used but not how to copy and paste.. I mean seriously! I actually had to teach smart 13 year olds how to drag and Drop .......yesterday... I mean WTF! Its a priorities issue and comes down from a government who is commonly not in touch with the chalkface. I agree part of the issue is they are a whizz on smartphones and use touch screen at the same time they cannot even use a right click mouse properly!! Yes who knows the future, brain implants?? however this is Now, and these kids are using the present technology so that argument is specious. So, learning to use the current technology efficiently is no way ridiculous. Why am I? a music teacher? teaching this? Microsoft Windows for example is ubiquitous and will be the most used computer interface for the next decade at least and has been around for yonks. (and as you know was initially built on clumsy coding itself.. but here I am using it) So one can argue actually what is ridiculous is that teachers who are teaching computing are not teaching how to use a computer keyboard (and mouse) efficiently (ie, the ones they do much of their computer programming on? am I missing something? or do they do on papyrus and stone tablets??)...... from the age they first learn to type on a qwerty keyboard, they can cope it is just that our education is missing what are really useful life skills. Im not a programmer but I just copied and pasted this link here https://blog.jorcus.com/keyboard-shortcuts-for-programmers/

The answer is that Michael Gove scrapped ICT lessons saying the kids were digital natives and would pick up these skills elsewhere. ICT was replaced with computing which we can’t get the teachers for so they’re not really taught that either.

Yeh I speak to my kids about being digital natives. They are patently NOT picking up these useful skills elsewhere (remember Gove misguidedly tried to ram classics back into academy schools) FYI it has gotten worse after covid lockdown, many kids have missed out of fundamental learning. Here is current KS3-4 National Curriculum

Here you go https://www.gov.uk/government/news/harmful-ict-curriculum-set-to-be-dropped-to-make-way-for-rigorous-computer-science

"Imagine the dramatic change which could be possible in just a few years, once we remove the roadblock of the existing ICT curriculum. Instead of children bored out of their minds being taught how to use Word and Excel by bored teachers, we could have 11-year-olds able to write simple 2D computer animations using an MIT tool called Scratch. By 16, they could have an understanding of formal logic previously covered only in University courses and be writing their own Apps for smartphones."

hah.

I would see it as word processing, and an English skill.

I’ll check your link to see what else is useful.

I wouldn’t usually comment on someone else’s communication style, but did find your walls of text lacked appropriate punctuation and the font change was very off putting.

Yes.
HTH.

About the tone of posters, that is.

You seem weirdly over-invested in Ctrl V.

I agree, there is a gap, but many families won't have laptops or desktops with Word and Excel like they did 15 years ago when it came with the new computer, and you used word to write letters etc, as so much has moved onto tablets, apps etc, online contact forms etc, and you now have to pay a subscription for microsoft, so they are less likely to learn at home. Although I guess most DCs have school microsoft accounts now, if parents aren't using this software they are unlikely to teach their children. Also although we do use them at work, many are still at a fairly basic level and don't explore or look for better ways to do things.

My DCs (17 and 19) have picked up a lot as they have got older but they know very little about Excel apart from that you can make tables in it. DH says the same about new graduates at his work, I suspect it is true in my workplace too. As for the mouse, younger people seem to be able to use the touchpad far better than I can, I much prefer a mouse as I've used them for so long, but maybe that is just progress.

When my sister bought DS1 (now 16) a laptop a few years ago (probably 13/14), I think he'd previously been using mine (or my desktop) both for playing games for bits of homework, and he said he'd like an external mouse - I have one because I find touchpads hard to use. DS2 (now 14) likes to use his dad's gadgets and is much more comfortable with a touchpad. And DP is older than me. So I don't think it's an age thing.

I also think it would be useful for kids to have a chance to learn touch typing and some basic using software skills. I started using Microsoft Word for Windows (version 2) over 30 years ago when my mum bought a desktop computer with it installed, though I also worked as a temp with lots of other software packages, including a pre Windows version of Word as a backup when the main internal system, Officepower, crashed in one job, back in 1996. I do wish the more recent versions of Microsoft Office would go back to not burying the menus for things I used every day at work and home under loads of other stuff.

And actually a lot of documents and forms still use Word - I haven't renewed my subscription for over a year but think I'm going to need to soon. The kids have access to Microsoft Office from home through their school websites which also offer all the various other stuff their schools subscribe to.

When I was at school, personal computers only existed in sci fi. I've never had a computing lesson in my life. But I know how to copy and paste. I can use word processing software. I can edit a photo. I can use Google effectively. I also know how to use a dictionary and how to lok something up in an index, and understand the Dewey decimal system. The only one of those I was ever actually taught was how to use a dictionary, when I was at primary school.

Are people no longer capable of finding things out for themselves? Once they've left school, do people go through their lives never learning anything new, never knowing anything they weren't taught at school?

I am literally in the process of learning how to use the fonts/texts on this site please excuse my inputting skills. Ironic but humorous methinks... Mumsnet is new to me (life long learner @61 yrs) 🙄bear with me !.. (at least i have learned how to learn😯)
yeh English might be a good place to deliver this.. they are overworked too however teaching to the exam..... regurgitated quotes from Dickens A Christmas Carol when this kids dont get the point of the novel!
Touch typing.... hell yes! really wish i had been taught that I am still a 2 fingered prehensile kinda typist... it works in the main.... speech is my forte tbh.
Anyway, I am superb at CTL V😂thank you for noticing xx
I am very serious about this and similar issues as should you be .. these kids are going to be in charge when we are in a care home. It is common talk in the staffroom how needy some pupils have become.

I use a computer all day and don't use the keyboard for these I use the mouse, I thought everyone did these day! I do know them as I'm old enough to remember before the mouse.

Do you think it might be useful to learn other shortcuts - things like, oh, I don't know - F7?

Yeh literally almost sci fi.. we had a young maths teacher about 1978 who came and excitedly told us that if he put an reeeeally complex equation into the computer it would like a miracle be solved and be printed out on a sheet 4 days later.!.... sounds like Turing enigma.. anyone remember those huge piles of paper sheets? I also remember a girlfriend who worked at at Racal Vodaphone in around 1984 (yep) telling me there was a whisper that personal phones were going to become a big thing. 😆

NeverDropYourMooncup heh heh. I geddit... nah CTL S first of all surely