Really basic computer skills not taught at school.. why?

[Nationalcurricumum]

Hi all
First post
18 years+ a secondary music teacher and long-time Mumsnet silent browser. have signed up today because the old TES website has (stupidly) barred teachers from discussing things Doh!..... Anyhoo...... I have spoken to our schools IT teachers and it appears that REALLY basic everyday computer keyboard shortcuts which will save people hours and hours by improving workflow etc.... Simple ones like copy + paste, (CTL C CTL V), (which certain lazy students will use extensively at Uni... ie. while plagiarising vast tracts of others work!😅); save (CTL S) are unbelievably NOT taught in the National curriculum from KS2.
All children need to know some of these they are a universal skill. Our IT teachers say there is not enough time in their curriculum to learn these (actually USEFUL for once!) skills while they teach coding and other programming skills (Cart before the horse IMO) I am hitting a defensive brick wall fighting for my school to teach these basics as I care about my kids and their actual life-skills not just regurgitation of knowledge.
This term I have again had to teach my year 9s ! (ie. 13 year olds who are a whizz on a smartphone) (during a music lesson !!) how to press CTL S, etc etc... rather than spending a minute scrolling menus with a mouse. or touchpad (As a music teacher I am not a fan of the narrow Govian EBacc curriculum but wont go into that here). So, any parents, I.T. English, functional skills educators etc etc out there have an opinion on this IMO gaping hole in school education which will improve childrens use of computers immeasurably that can actually be used in real life and life-long? Anyone have thoughts or an explanation for this?

In my daughters case back in the day it was because they had no teacher to do it….in a supposedly Maths and Computing School! 🤣 I was rung to say she had not handed in a piece of coursework on Access for her GCSE, I got a bit bolshy (in a friendly) way with her form teacher and said well IT moves so quickly it’s obsolete by the time it gets on a syllabus, if she needs it in the workplace she’ll soon learn. I gave daughter express permission not to bother wasting her time revising for that subject, she probably did. There must be some online resources and exercises they could work through? I know about that stuff in theory but never use it these days.

Assuming parents know this stuff, by your reasoning schools could schoold require parents to teach maths, RE, chemistry, etc?

It's a vital subject. It needs to be taught by a trained teacher. It's not something like saying please and thank you or how to tie shoelaces. Yes, schools need to teach it.

My DCs in school in the US couldn't graduate without passing a keyboarding class that included Office suite and a huge amount of other material, as well as a speed and accuracy typing test.

Interesting. I've worked in IT since 1984 and I've never once used Ctl C, ctl V, or whatever. In the Microsoft world, that doesn't apply, which is probably why it isn't taught in schools.

This is basic workplace training. Essential theory like maths is much more valuable and worthy of school time. Using a word processing package is something anyone can pick up from a free tutorial at home.

YABU because they should have picked it up as part of using office. Should we do touch typing then too?

That said ctlr-s and ctlr-v ctlr-c only works if you use desktop office. It doesn’t if you use Google office for example. It is a very narrow skill set. Touch typing is much wider in application.

I work as a software developer and believe it or not we don’t use Microsoft office. Or even much office. Not all job does. We write documents in wikis and markup. Former are collaborative and searchable. Later are committed as part of code.

I hate this sort of comment, are you comparing the time and knowledge needed to teach a subject to your children such as chemistry to something very basic such as a simple command? If it's so essential as OP says then surely the majority of adults know how to do it? For those who don't and who struggle with the very basics they'd be supported in IT/Computing at school, but there's no value in using that time to teach everyone stuff the majority know, could Google and find out, and of which recent Office versions actually prompt when you complete the action with mouse.

IIRC, one of the reasons the DfE gave for removing IT from the curriculum and replacing it with Computer Science (apart from the obvious fact that there weren't enough teachers to teach both and they needed the IT teachers to upskill) was that workplace skills such as the MS365 suite (Word, Access, Excel, Powerpoint, etc) can be learned from a myriad of free online resources. Unfortunately, you do need to know where to look for them and have the motivation and skill to find courses pitched at the right starting point. I work in IT myself so I'm pretty good at distilling information online, but I've spent hours wading through lists of Microsoft tutorials trying to find videos suitable for my boys. During school holidays I have sent them links to Excel courses, and given them mini tasks to complete, but until they actually need to use it for a practical task that interests them (such as analysing their bank statement) they don't appreciate why it's useful, and definitely don't prioritise it. Now my eldest is doing stats at uni he's getting to grips with some sophisticated data analysis tools yet the summer internships he's applying for still usually want Excel, which he is nowhere near as proficient with as he should be.

This is the qualification everyone needs: https://www.bcs.org/qualifications-and-certifications/digital-literacy-qualifications/bcs-level-3-certificate-in-it-user-skills-icdl-advanced/

It is the equivalent of an A level and is fully funded by the Government for anyone who meets the criteria. It would be useful for many parents as well as their older children.

All.been taught as part of other things in ICT. Don't think it's the issue OP is making it our to be, plus they should know it from Primary.

Computers are moving on, evolving all the time. Don't always use a keyboard. Speaking to it works for me. AI is broadening our horizons in that too.

I have spent decades learning all the shortcuts and wrinkles, way back from using a 2B pencil (from the art department) instead of HB on the graphite cards on our first school computer, through function key shortcuts, ctrl shortcuts, graphic interface up to the voice control I tend to use now.

I don't keep a 2B pencil handy any more....

Schools have no money. To teach ICT a huge amount of money is needed to set up and sustain the technology. Blame the government.

You thought everyone managed to use words and excel without a keyboard? That can't be right

A lot of keyboard shortcuts can be done by mouse/other single hand interface.... left-click, right-click, double-click, box click, contextual menus on buttons ... a lot of people don't use keyboard based shortcuts.

Exactly this. People have no clue how long things take in primary and the hundreds of skills a year already cramming the curriculum. Why do people have children ? Just to look at them and make them tea sometimes? Education starts at home and continues at home.

This is so accurate, they are absolutely great with tablets and phones but missing basic Word and Excel skills used in the workplace. Just this week I had teach one of our new young members of staff how to make text bold in a letter they were sending to a client. (And, they didn't have a clue about 'counsellors' not being the same as 'councillors').

It's not a lack of intelligence just Education priorities changing.

I hate this sort of comment, are you comparing the time and knowledge needed to teach a subject to your children such as chemistry to something very basic such as a simple command? If it's so essential as OP says then surely the majority of adults know how to do it?

@Unithorn
That's a massive set of potentially misplaced assumptions there. It's like assuming every home has a selection of books or access to books (Kindle, etc) and speak standard English, and wondering why twelve year olds are struggling with reading.

You're starting by assuming parents have been to school or have grown up in a developed country.
Then you're assuming they have a job/hobby/lifestyle where keyboarding or word processing skills are used.
Then you're assuming they have a laptop or PC at home.

Keyboarding is absolutely essential in many industries and will only increase its relevance as time goes on, and the majority of adults are not capable of doing teaching current or relevant skills to their children in a way that is thorough or systematic.

For those who don't and who struggle with the very basics they'd be supported in IT/Computing at school, but there's no value in using that time to teach everyone stuff the majority know, could Google and find out, and of which recent Office versions actually prompt when you complete the action with mouse.

There is a huge value in having a specific keyboarding course that all students must pass, taught by a qualified teacher, with a proper assessment rubric for skills.

The material covered can be kept up to date for workplace requirements, and it can be general enough to cover many industries.

Again, the assumption that the majority of students or their parents would know how to generate and manipulate a spreadsheet, create a power point, create and manage databases, create and use graphics, or know how to use applications used in marketing or management, or basic business concepts is completely misplaced. My DCs' coursework in high school covered all of that and more, and their skills were assessed by means of several complex projects assigned during the school year.

As my DCs have progressed through university and into careers, they have built on the foundations laid in school, and they have embraced all the requirements of their jobs with confidence.

yes exactly. Yr 7 DD knows how to use PowerPoint, excel and word because we taught her in Yr 5/6.

DD is in Year 4 but we don't own a laptop or home computer. We have a tablet she was given once and my smartphone.

I grew up with laptops in the 00s and even I don't use the shortcuts despite knowing then. Not sure why, I just don't.

But I remember learning how to use Word and PowerPoint in Year 5/6. We would have computer lessons where we made presentations or used them to make digital posters etc. We didn't use Excel at that age though.

plus they should know it from Primary.

TBF, I'm not sure they all use computers with keyboards. They have tablets, at least that's what my Year 4 says

The only tech people I know interested in teaching children are older.

In fact I know and have worked with people who went into tech careers to get away from teaching school aged children.

@mathanxiety you lost me when you group create and manage databases with PowerPoint and excel. The majority of adults don’t know how to and won’t need to know how to do that. I don’t know how to create and manage databases. (I can install a database package but they won’t be production ready and honestly who does that nowadays). That’s why we hire DBAs on premise and use RDS on AWS. If it’s that easy, there won’t be a managed service on all the cloud platforms for it. It’s specialised knowledge and I don’t think should be taught at school or university.

More people can write SQL queries but most aren’t very good at it either. But you didn’t even mention that might be what we should teach kids. Who knows why. (I don’t think writing selects and set theory should be taught at either primary or secondary).

But if you know this stuff and have the time and brainspace to get so het up about it, why don't you just plan it into your lesson?

You're supposed to be using cross-curricular links as part of the teaching standards so this is an exceptionally easy win for your next lesson ob if you know the kids don't know it and you've established it's not being taught elsewhere!

I use it.

I actually Google for stuff if I want to use a shortcut or anything in a specific application or in a device.

To be honest what would actually be more useful then teaching this stuff is to teach secondary aged children how to use search engines and social media effectively.

However that covers more than just IT skills as it includes English and humanities for a start simply to work out what information comes from proper sources.

Set theory is Maths and I was taught the basics of that at primary school.

In fact I could get my DD to do the very basics at 3.

(I taught other students on my Masters. They were shocked that they actually knew and understood the basics.)

Basic computer skills
Basic budgeting
Basic life skills
Would probably be more useful than maths to 18 (spoken as someone who loves maths)

I have no need to use Excel.

Why would I teach a child it?

Some people have no need to use PowerPoint.

The only thing worth teaching is how to use a word processing program but the shortcuts change over time.

Microsoft is dominant now but likely won't be when my 5 year old is 15. Likewise when I was 15 it wasn't.

It is actually better to teach people, including children, how to find out information themselves and how to work out if the source is safe and reliable whether it is teaching them how to do something or a source of news