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Secondary education

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Original poster

Really basic computer skills not taught at school.. why?

100 replies

Nationalcurricumum · 12/10/2023 08:56

Hi all
First post
18 years+ a secondary music teacher and long-time Mumsnet silent browser. have signed up today because the old TES website has (stupidly) barred teachers from discussing things Doh!..... Anyhoo...... I have spoken to our schools IT teachers and it appears that REALLY basic everyday computer keyboard shortcuts which will save people hours and hours by improving workflow etc.... Simple ones like copy + paste, (CTL C CTL V), (which certain lazy students will use extensively at Uni... ie. while plagiarising vast tracts of others work!😅); save (CTL S) are unbelievably NOT taught in the National curriculum from KS2.
All children need to know some of these they are a universal skill. Our IT teachers say there is not enough time in their curriculum to learn these (actually USEFUL for once!) skills while they teach coding and other programming skills (Cart before the horse IMO) I am hitting a defensive brick wall fighting for my school to teach these basics as I care about my kids and their actual life-skills not just regurgitation of knowledge.
This term I have again had to teach my year 9s ! (ie. 13 year olds who are a whizz on a smartphone) (during a music lesson !!) how to press CTL S, etc etc... rather than spending a minute scrolling menus with a mouse. or touchpad (As a music teacher I am not a fan of the narrow Govian EBacc curriculum but wont go into that here). So, any parents, I.T. English, functional skills educators etc etc out there have an opinion on this IMO gaping hole in school education which will improve childrens use of computers immeasurably that can actually be used in real life and life-long? Anyone have thoughts or an explanation for this?

OP posts:
PeggyPiglet · 12/10/2023 21:14

If only.

I can barely get 10 laptops to work properly for 30 children in my school, never mind one each for them to properly practise these things.

Original poster
Nationalcurricumum · 12/10/2023 21:15

gotomomo · 12/10/2023 21:02

I use a computer all day and don't use the keyboard for these I use the mouse, I thought everyone did these day! I do know them as I'm old enough to remember before the mouse.

There are a few really easy really useful ones you can use all the time... and there are loads of more special software specific you may choose to learn specially if you can be ar**d. Seriously though, about 10 basic ones will speed you right up!.... eg. when you want to save something use your LEFT hand ... hold down Ctrl while you press S this means you can save this swiftly while keeping right hand on mouse to carry on... soz teacher mode! 😄

OP posts:
Original poster
Nationalcurricumum · 12/10/2023 21:19

PeggyPiglet · 12/10/2023 21:14

If only.

I can barely get 10 laptops to work properly for 30 children in my school, never mind one each for them to properly practise these things.

Tell me about it!! Ive had to work my backside off for years to get us up to first gear😫

OP posts:
HappyMavis · 12/10/2023 21:23

"garrulous".

Original poster
Nationalcurricumum · 12/10/2023 21:25

Anetra · 12/10/2023 09:05

Suppose schools can’t be responsible for teaching absolutely everything and parents are there to teach a lot at home? Why is ir up to the school in your opinion to teach this?

Great point.. yeh why do we teachers have to teach literally everything including morals hygiene and how to blow your nose...... Something has gotten lost from our society re. parenting ... obviously not all parents.... but it is a reality, so what do we do, cant leave the poor mites to fend for themselves. My mum got me mostly ready and didnt leave it to school alone

OP posts:
Original poster
Nationalcurricumum · 12/10/2023 21:32

HappyMavis · 12/10/2023 21:23

"garrulous".

Did you like that HappyMavis? 😁 Soz, i couldn`t help but return the garrulity ....with extras

OP posts:
nibblez · 12/10/2023 21:50

@Nationalcurricumum I both agree and disagree with you. Yes, I agree all kids need basic ICT skills, but they need to be taught in primary, not secondary school. However, the coding skills that you think are only useful to a "tiny minority" need to become much more widely accessible. Unfortunately there aren't enough ICT or computing teachers to do either of these things because people with the relevant skills are too busy filling better-paid gaps in the labour market. 😬

MsJuniper · 12/10/2023 23:46

KS2 teacher here and we teach cursor skills, c+p, undo etc.

sashh · 13/10/2023 03:04

I am literally in the process of learning how to use the fonts/texts on this site please excuse my inputting skills. Ironic but humorous methinks... Mumsnet is new to me (life long learner @61 yrs) 🙄bear with me !.. (at least i have learned how to learn😯)

Hang on that means you were teaching when you were 13.

Back the actual topic. Computer science is a science. The curriculum is full.

I don't understand you. You are using software with short cuts you know, surely you should be teaching that? Why expect a teacher of a different subject to do that?

PammyShipman · 13/10/2023 03:55

Just because your school don't teach it, don't assume others don't.

Computing (as in the KS1- KS3 curriculum) is made up of computer science, IT and digital literacy. As part of digital literacy I teach my kids shortcuts. I also teach them how to find them so they can use others. Other basics like taking screenshots are taught too. It doesn't take any time as all to teach those skills and then you just remind the children constantly to use them in their other lessons when writing code, doing graphic design etc.

MerryMarigold · 13/10/2023 04:00

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 12/10/2023 09:01

Bit hard to read but yeah l get your drift.

I used to thesch GVSE and A level Dt coursework. Students would arrive in Yr 10 not knowing how to use any Officr programmes or even how to send an email.

The first 4 lessons of coursework were how to use Word, Poserpoknt and Excel.

My son spent half a term creating a PowerPoint. It was literally all he did!

nibblez · 13/10/2023 07:09

PammyShipman · 13/10/2023 03:55

Just because your school don't teach it, don't assume others don't.

Computing (as in the KS1- KS3 curriculum) is made up of computer science, IT and digital literacy. As part of digital literacy I teach my kids shortcuts. I also teach them how to find them so they can use others. Other basics like taking screenshots are taught too. It doesn't take any time as all to teach those skills and then you just remind the children constantly to use them in their other lessons when writing code, doing graphic design etc.

Unfortunately, you're a rarity! Our otherwise wonderful school has been advertising for a computer science teacher for months but sadly hasn't been able to recruit.

Nokoolaidherethanks · 13/10/2023 07:34

I think touch typing should be taught alongside handwriting from reception. As an adult almost everyone needs to type more than write. And basic computer skills including Office. Ok there are macs but still Office is surely widely more used in workplaces.

My kids school uses chrome books which means they use stupid Docs instead of Word and don't know how to do stuff on a real computer!

Princesspollyyy · 13/10/2023 07:57

Nationalcurricumum · 12/10/2023 12:57

A mite rude sashh saying i am being ridiculous, are posters always this patronising and garrulous on here? if so i dont think I will bother much. Anyway ill give it a go

So to respond to your comment however.
I was taught early computing BEFORE floppy disks or PCs were available around 1975ish I guess...ha ha. so what is your point?
Yes Computing is not IT per se but they usually use a keyboard to type... or am I missing something?
I am an actual teacher of long experience (one who still cares deeply), teaching actual children, who go into the actual world and workplace who get jobs at everyday real-life companies who use these actual shortcuts. (Not programming theory which a tiny minority of my kids will ever will use) These students are actually doing this on actual Windows 11 on actual Standard keyboards using an actual universally recognised music software that uses all the basics like CTL S; CTL Z Incidentally as used in every department of our (Ofsted Outstanding) state school by 1700+ real life children and over 100 actual teaching and support staff. So why is this genuine concern of mine ridiculous? These basics should be like teaching kids how to tie their laces ... it makes life easier and more efficient. Not sure why you and Computing teachers are baulking at this tiny extra useful bit of real-life skill? (see NC snip attached seeking competent confident students ready for the workplace)

This as mondaytosunday states takes 2 minutes and a cheat sheet to learn I use these shortcuts all the time day in day out we are supposed to be teaching learning skills workflow, all the Pro (non academic computer users) use shortcuts all the time. I too cannot believe they have not been taught this.

OK mac is CMD S etc but you surely get the drift about actual efficacy and utility (or maybe you dont?) We spend endless hours teaching maths that will never be used but not how to copy and paste.. I mean seriously! I actually had to teach smart 13 year olds how to drag and Drop .......yesterday... I mean WTF! Its a priorities issue and comes down from a government who is commonly not in touch with the chalkface. I agree part of the issue is they are a whizz on smartphones and use touch screen at the same time they cannot even use a right click mouse properly!! Yes who knows the future, brain implants?? however this is Now, and these kids are using the present technology so that argument is specious. So, learning to use the current technology efficiently is no way ridiculous. Why am I? a music teacher? teaching this? Microsoft Windows for example is ubiquitous and will be the most used computer interface for the next decade at least and has been around for yonks. (and as you know was initially built on clumsy coding itself.. but here I am using it) So one can argue actually what is ridiculous is that teachers who are teaching computing are not teaching how to use a computer keyboard (and mouse) efficiently (ie, the ones they do much of their computer programming on? am I missing something? or do they do on papyrus and stone tablets??)...... from the age they first learn to type on a qwerty keyboard, they can cope it is just that our education is missing what are really useful life skills. Im not a programmer but I just copied and pasted this link here https://blog.jorcus.com/keyboard-shortcuts-for-programmers/

Edited

Sorry but never mind IT skills, I think your punctuation and grammar skills need sorting?!

Also have you ever heard of paragraphs?

I gave up reading after the first few lines.

Original poster
Nationalcurricumum · 13/10/2023 09:54

nibblez · 12/10/2023 21:50

@Nationalcurricumum I both agree and disagree with you. Yes, I agree all kids need basic ICT skills, but they need to be taught in primary, not secondary school. However, the coding skills that you think are only useful to a "tiny minority" need to become much more widely accessible. Unfortunately there aren't enough ICT or computing teachers to do either of these things because people with the relevant skills are too busy filling better-paid gaps in the labour market. 😬

I agree AND agree with you. Basics taught in Primary = YES. more coding programming skills = YES (although as I said most of my own students will use these skills as often as they use quadratic equations in later life)

OP posts:
Original poster
Nationalcurricumum · 13/10/2023 10:16

Nokoolaidherethanks · 13/10/2023 07:34

I think touch typing should be taught alongside handwriting from reception. As an adult almost everyone needs to type more than write. And basic computer skills including Office. Ok there are macs but still Office is surely widely more used in workplaces.

My kids school uses chrome books which means they use stupid Docs instead of Word and don't know how to do stuff on a real computer!

Exactly, Thankyou x

OP posts:
Original poster
Nationalcurricumum · 13/10/2023 10:20

Princesspollyyy · 13/10/2023 07:57

Sorry but never mind IT skills, I think your punctuation and grammar skills need sorting?!

Also have you ever heard of paragraphs?

I gave up reading after the first few lines.

Show quote history

Gawd blimey, this is getting boring... I responded to that about 4 times!
I am in the process of learning how to type on these pages and for the first post I used hyphens and paragraphs (as I normally would) it came out as reams of code... so let it go FFS!
FYI my grammar is fine; and were I to be impolite and pedantic like yourself I might comment that ?! should strictly and technically only be used singularly. While using them serially is sloppy (or casual) grammar.
However I am too courteous to mention your own grammar faux pas.... oh whoopsy I already did, so I think I am going to compound my bad manners by going all in and saying Up yours Princess picky!

Thank you all the useful and genuine posts. I will take your thoughts away and share with my leadership team at school.
However, I am here a first time poster about a serious topic.
I`m finding a lot of negativity, there is an element of toxicity on here I do not need in my life, so I am off.
I tried.
Sayonara Mumsnet x

OP posts:
user1497207191 · 13/10/2023 10:24

Anetra · 12/10/2023 09:05

Suppose schools can’t be responsible for teaching absolutely everything and parents are there to teach a lot at home? Why is ir up to the school in your opinion to teach this?

So why do they teach the periodic table, pythagoras, or ask how to get to the town hall in Germany - a tiny number compared to how many people will need basic computer skills? Schools just havn't moved on from decades ago. They need to teach more life skills that are actually needed by the majority of people in the modern world.

YerAWizardHarry · 13/10/2023 10:28

I teach in Scotland (predominantaly Primary 5 so 9ish year olds). My students are given 1 to 1 devices at the beginning of P5 and most are extremely poor at the beginning of the year. By the end of the year they’re able to proficiently use the full google suite (albeit sheets VERY basically), type well enough to produce work in roughly the same time it takes them to write and take care of and use their devices appropriately.

Although I’m aware we are very lucky to have so much technology to hand..

YerAWizardHarry · 13/10/2023 10:30

Docs and Word are near enough identical now a days…

user1497207191 · 13/10/2023 10:32

HonoriaLucastaDelagardie · 12/10/2023 20:15

When I was at school, personal computers only existed in sci fi. I've never had a computing lesson in my life. But I know how to copy and paste. I can use word processing software. I can edit a photo. I can use Google effectively. I also know how to use a dictionary and how to lok something up in an index, and understand the Dewey decimal system. The only one of those I was ever actually taught was how to use a dictionary, when I was at primary school.

Are people no longer capable of finding things out for themselves? Once they've left school, do people go through their lives never learning anything new, never knowing anything they weren't taught at school?

The same logic can be applied to virtually everything taught in secondary school though.

Need to know the area of a circle? There'll be an app for it!

Need to know which is the densest metal? Just Google!

Need to ask for a coffee in Berlin? Load the translation app on your phone!

And so on.

JustAMinutePleass · 13/10/2023 10:38

The keyboard shortcuts you mentioned only work for Windows. Not Mac. That’s probably why they aren’t being taught. At uni when studying computer science for the first time you’re expected to figure out how to install software by yourself for your laptop. I view the use of shortcuts similarly.

sashh · 14/10/2023 04:02

Nokoolaidherethanks · 13/10/2023 07:34

I think touch typing should be taught alongside handwriting from reception. As an adult almost everyone needs to type more than write. And basic computer skills including Office. Ok there are macs but still Office is surely widely more used in workplaces.

My kids school uses chrome books which means they use stupid Docs instead of Word and don't know how to do stuff on a real computer!

The problem with teaching touch typing is that a standard key board is too big for a child's hands.

You can get smaller keyboards but it is yet another expense.

Unithorn · 14/10/2023 05:24

nibblez · 13/10/2023 07:09

Unfortunately, you're a rarity! Our otherwise wonderful school has been advertising for a computer science teacher for months but sadly hasn't been able to recruit.

Show quote history

It's not overly surprising as people with a computing degree can access much more interesting and lucrative careers to be honest. However with the change in the industry (mass job losses ane cuts) a benefit for schools is that some will be seeking a stable job and might be tempted.

Watchthedoormat · 14/10/2023 05:49

When my ds started secondary school we bought him a laptop as all homework was online unfortunately neither his Dad or I know anything at all about computers apart from how to switch them on and the only computer DS knew anything about was his blooming PlayStation.
Homework was so stressful for him. It was a homework in itself trying to access it and he (we) didn't know copy and paste or anything.
It was assumed all the pupils would know these things and ds was worried he'd look stupid asking a teacher for help.
We found out one of his friends was in a similar position and also struggled, pretending he hadn't done homework rather than admitting he couldn't do it on the computer.
Basic skills need to be taught in latter primary years. Not all of us work in industries that use computer systems and can help our children in this area ( or have time to do a computing/IT course to get up to speed.