GCSE "compulsory" subject. DS doesn't want to do it.

[sugarhopper]

DS is in top set for French at school. School says that if you are in the top set in year 9 then you HAVE to take French as one of your GCSE choices.

Now, while DS is good at it, he doesn't like or enjoy it. Top set of any other subject aren't forced into a GCSE, only the MFL classes.
Also doing French will mean he will have to drop one of his other options (probably Design & Tech or Computing) which he really wants to do. (Also, top set for these subjects)
I know we're going to have a fight on our hands over this, but any advice will be welcome.

There isn't a single remaining university in the UK which has an entry requirement, or preference for, of a language at GCSE.

You say that but I went to France with my boyfriend aged 18 and asked people where the supermarket was in my best GCSE French and no one even understood what I was saying. It was a complete waste of time.

If he might want to do A-level computer science (mine has really enjoyed it) then obviously GCSE computing is going to be vastly more useful than French. DS was able to do Latin and was very pleased to drop MFL.

Computer Science is hugely competitive at university, MFL's aren't.

Can I just reiterate this is about choices at 14.
The high paying coding/tech jobs don’t need a GCSE in computer science. You can catch up easier later.

You're making a fuss over nothing. If he's bright, it's not going to take much effort to pass GCSE French or impact his future choices at all.

You don’t even need a CS A-level let alone GCSE to read CS at university. Maths, Further Maths and Physics is a better bet as school CS is a soft subject.

I work in tech for one of the biggest software developers in the world (you will have definitely heard of it). The vast majority of our developers are multilingual (except the Brits and Americans 🤣). If you want to work for a multinational, having a second language, and more importantly having the facility to pick up enough language to get by, is a huge bonus. My final interview was with a French manager based in London. I’m pretty sure me clocking the accent and switching to French during the interview clinched the job 😁I can socialise with colleagues in our offices abroad, and function better when I’m posted to clients abroad, even if I’m not fluent in the language, in a way monoglots cannot.

When I interview now I always see candidates with a second language more favourably, especially a Brit who didn’t take the easy option of dropping their MFA.

That's not been the case for many years.

I think you'll probably win this one by making enough of a nuisance of yourself.

Me, I'd encourage him to stick with it and give up DT. It does kids no harm to do one subject they are not keen on - loads of kids have to do subjects they hate (Eng, Maths, Sci) and knowing you can get through it and do Ok is really valuable.

DT should be a great GCSE but there is an absolute dearth of teachers. We had 2 leave in Y10 and school could not replace them at all. With a good teacher it can be a great subject, but I got the impression that this was despite the syllabus rather than because of it. It was DS's first pick when taking options and the only one he ended up hating. It's not just our school either - my DC have friends at several other schools with similar issues. The GCSE seems to have been designed to be as accessible to schools with limited equipment as possible, but that means taking out a lot of practical elements. Rote learning lists of different wood types and their qualities turned out to be no more interesting than learning French vocab lists.

This is true - it's unlikely that sixth forms will yet be requiring gcse CS in order to take the A level (precisely because schools limit options/don't have the teachers). A kid with aptitude and enthusiasm, who may well do coding as a hobby (though that's not all there is to CS) can doubtless manage. But as the uni courses are so competitive then maximising the chances of a top grade may matter,

It's probably also still the case that there's many good CS uni courses which don't require the A level. But this may change. And if the DC isn't a top grade maths and FM type (the OPs DS may or may not be, this is a general point) then a high grade in A level CS surely becomes very relevant.

None of the above means it's a good idea to force a kid to do a subject they neither need nor enjoy at the expense of one they do enjoy which will be of more benefit to them later.

It doesn't sound like he would do badly at GCSE French, at least. Some schools try and force a compulsory language even for pupils who really struggle with it.

Whether it's worth fighting it may depend on how the timetable is structured. In some schools, everyone has to do a language, and there is no alternative subject taught at the same time, so they can't make exceptions. If it's only compulsory for the top set, that's probably not the case here, and so it might at least be possible.

If they flatly refuse, then the next question is whether it's a big enough deal to make you move school - although you also have the problem of finding another school that has a space and offers the subjects he wants. I guess you may be in a stronger position arguing with the current school if you can say that you've looked into it and the next school along is an option.

You don't need a modern language for anything other than continuing to A-level, and you don't need GCSE Computing to do A-level.

The myriad of the very tiny number of careers where speaking French at GCSE level would be useful. Again, so tragic.

Your responses are strangely obtuse. Dropping a language age 14 has more of an effect than not doing CS. Don’t understand why you find that tragic.

🤣🤣 Oh the irony of you calling someone else obtuse!

You don't make any sense. If you like learning languages then great, but GCSE French is utterly useless to 99% of people and your nonsensical arguments won't change that.

Let’s dial it down.
My point is that not doing cs gcse doesn’t stop a 14 year old from having a career in computing/ coding/ aeronautics.
I don’t know the exact reasoning behind the ebac- it’s certainly not easy and that suggests that it provides a good grounding that otherwise children could miss out on. We already specialise earlier here that in other countries. Why wouldn’t you want your dc to have a broad grounding. Why would you want to restrict options early? I genuinely don’t understand.

I will say this though -- it's GCSE. It won't kill him to do a non-preferred subject. Plenty of children hate maths or science or English but we make them do it. This thread shows just how devalued MFL has become.

This won't make or break his university choices for computer science and I know many people with CS degrees.

Help him construct a simple clear paragraph along these lines. Try to make it as polite as possible.

"Because I am in the top set in French, the school are requiring me to take it for GCSE, which will prevent me from taking options relevant to my chosen career. I have therefore gone on strike from submitting my homework in French or participating properly in French lessons, and am waiting to be moved down a set, so that this rule will not apply to me. I am sorry, teacher, that this prevents me from participating properly in your programme of study and I do hope that you won't take it personally."

Then he just writes that out instead of submitting his homework. Every time.

If he's as conscientious and hard-working as you say, he could still do the french homework. Might as well still learn a bit of french while he is doing it. Might get in a little bit of trouble with head of year. But keep polite, and keep reiterating that this is because compulsory french means he has to drop a career-relevant subject.

Although also check the school's policy for whether you need computing GCSE to do the A-level. I don't think you need it for content. But they might have a policy. If they do, I might go for all guns blazing instead....

In the modern world, not learning CS is arguably as restricting as not learning a bit of one specific MFL.
This doesn't help the OPs dilemma, but maybe there should be less focus on everything studied in KS3 having to be for a formal exam. Perhaps kids should all learn some computing and enough of a few major languages (french, Spanish, German, mandarin, Japanese perhaps) to get a cab and order a beer.

I didn't want this to be an argument about the pros and cons of French as a GCSE. As I said, it's more that he is forced into doing a subject he doesn't want to do, and being forced to drop one which he does.
He would, in all probability do very well in the exam. But he hates the subject.
I wouldn't force him to do Drama or RE even if he was good at the subject.
He will be able to get into university without a language qualification, as another of my children did. Should he need or want to learn a language at a later date then I'm sure he will be able to.

He want's me to back him on this, and I will. If I thought he was wrong, then I might try to change his mind, but in this case, and with the experience of several older DC's who have already been through GCSE/A level/University I'm going to stand firm.

If school refuse to budge then I may just tell him not to go to the lesson at all, and work it out from there. In the meantime I've told him not to try too hard in class. They might just change their mind.

No I dont think this is fair at all that this applies only to the top French set. Seems like they are not putting the pupils best interests a first.

I did French at GCSE. I was good at it and got an A.I liked it. I preferred German but I wanted to do Physics so couldn't also do German. Of all the GCSEs I did, it has been the least useful. The others either had some connections to each other- sciences, hist/geog, hist /English lit/classics/drama or I followed them up at A level or they informed my views and understanding of the world.

I have used French on holidaysoccasionally-badly- and it popped up sometimes looking at the roots of words when I taught English. That's it.

If a child is good at it and enjoys it or wants a career in languages fine but it's not to be forced on children.

If school refuse to budge then I may just tell him not to go to the lesson at all

🙄 That's pathetic.

If they force the issue and he's capable then I'd just get him to crack on, but not prioritise it if he needs to focus on other subjects.

If school refuse to budge then I may just tell him not to go to the lesson at all

That is internal truancy and not a good idea at all.

Well that's helpful advice. Thanks for that. Are you a French teacher?

I'm not going to say well you're just going to have to sit and be miserable for several hours a week, doing something you hate for no good reason. This GCSE is no good reason to to be miserable. 2 years of that isn't going to achieve anything. The time could be spent either doing a subject he likes, or revision and homework for the other subjects. Kids are excused from lessons for many reasons, and are expected to go to the library or study suite and get on with something else. So that's the path I will take, if necessary. IF the school had given him a choice in languages it would be a different story.

@CancertheCrab Why go the more competitive route if there are easier, less competitive routes?

Because it's getting increasingly difficult to secure top jobs with tangential degrees. The chances of securing a job writing algorithms with a top investment bank paying graduates £60-100k straight out of uni is much greater if you have a CompSci degree than a physics degree.