Page 15 | SW London Grammar and Private year 7 entry 2024

lolo99 · 2023-09-27T18:31:09+00:00

Not sure if this thread has been started but if not, I would like to share experiences, tips and generally talk about schools and their pros and cons and processes to ease the anxiety and pain for us parents :)

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 10:29

Atom sells online tutoring, one to one tutoring and set exams. Does sounds like a cartel/ monopoly vibe there. GDST schools have the same exams? Or just a few questions that are the same? This is a concern for this year since it allows some DC sitting the exams the ability to speed up answering time.
Atom is a business but have anyone been able to check their algorithms? You get higher marks as you pass easy questions accurately, but is it checked that is the case? We all know the issues with AI and general software glitches so who is tracking Atom exams fairness? When DC used Atom, we had to report lots of glitches, freezing pages, etc. Customer service was great but we needed to take screen shots and emailed.

One thing about the papers exams of Latymer Upper and Emanuel is that the papers can be marked and double checked by teachers.

minipie · 01/12/2023 10:30

Gosh how ridiculous if the same questions turn up at multiple schools. As you say, it puts those who’ve already tackled those questions at an advantage.

But it also makes this whole process of turning up to many slightly different exams even more daft. Why can the schools not just all agree on a single shared exam - or maybe two with different formats (multiple choice/long written) to allow for “off days” and different school preferences.

PreplexJ · 01/12/2023 10:32

Most of the Atom test is adaptive, so drawing questions is different to individual and related to the process the exam taker did at that point in time.

I wonder if it is related to its algorithm that would hit a condition to get the same set of questions drawn out repeatedly.

Part of that reason, ISEB only allow pupils to take only once.

minipie · 01/12/2023 10:34

I seem to recall reading on here about glitches in the Atom adaptive tests a couple of years ago, where some children never made it onto the harder questions (and so had a limited overall score) despite answering all early questions correctly. I hope/assume this got sorted.

QuiteAJourney · 01/12/2023 10:34

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 10:29

Atom sells online tutoring, one to one tutoring and set exams. Does sounds like a cartel/ monopoly vibe there. GDST schools have the same exams? Or just a few questions that are the same? This is a concern for this year since it allows some DC sitting the exams the ability to speed up answering time.
Atom is a business but have anyone been able to check their algorithms? You get higher marks as you pass easy questions accurately, but is it checked that is the case? We all know the issues with AI and general software glitches so who is tracking Atom exams fairness? When DC used Atom, we had to report lots of glitches, freezing pages, etc. Customer service was great but we needed to take screen shots and emailed.

One thing about the papers exams of Latymer Upper and Emanuel is that the papers can be marked and double checked by teachers.

GDST schools set their exams separately and are in some cases quite different formats.
The schools mentioned above belong to different groups - PHS (GDST), consortium, Surbiton (United Learning) and Ibstock (not affiliated)

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 10:39

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 10:29

Atom sells online tutoring, one to one tutoring and set exams. Does sounds like a cartel/ monopoly vibe there. GDST schools have the same exams? Or just a few questions that are the same? This is a concern for this year since it allows some DC sitting the exams the ability to speed up answering time.
Atom is a business but have anyone been able to check their algorithms? You get higher marks as you pass easy questions accurately, but is it checked that is the case? We all know the issues with AI and general software glitches so who is tracking Atom exams fairness? When DC used Atom, we had to report lots of glitches, freezing pages, etc. Customer service was great but we needed to take screen shots and emailed.

One thing about the papers exams of Latymer Upper and Emanuel is that the papers can be marked and double checked by teachers.

It's a total monopoly. Parents feel they have to pay for Atom subscriptions in order to give their child exposure to the 11+ exams Atom will set. Atom cash in.

Like you, we found multiple issues with the Atom platform whenever we used it.

But all that still isn't as problematic as Atom setting the same exam for multiple London schools, sat on different days, often by the same candidates.

Everyone I know who has sat CEM at different schools has had an entirely different exam, so it's not the case that this happens with all external providers as a PP suggested.

If the senior schools want to protect the integrity of their exams they need to get on top of this asap. I know the Atom debacle this year is already common knowledge among multiple prep schools and I suspect many of those parents are not going to go away quietly...

Ilikelists · 01/12/2023 10:41

Last year my daughter was sure the mock atom test they did in her prep school had the same questions as the Putney and the consortium exam. I chalked it up to similar questions but slightly different numbers - it could be that they were actually the same. Since they never went over the answers I think if you got it right or wrong the first time you probably got it right or wrong the second time too.

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 10:41

QuiteAJourney · 01/12/2023 10:34

GDST schools set their exams separately and are in some cases quite different formats.
The schools mentioned above belong to different groups - PHS (GDST), consortium, Surbiton (United Learning) and Ibstock (not affiliated)

Show quote history

Yes, only one GDST is in the London Consortium (set by Atom) - NHEHS.

But the PHS exam - like the Consortium - is set by Atom. And presumably Ibstock too since most of the exam was identical to the PHS exam.

PreplexJ · 01/12/2023 10:42

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 10:41

Yes, only one GDST is in the London Consortium (set by Atom) - NHEHS.

But the PHS exam - like the Consortium - is set by Atom. And presumably Ibstock too since most of the exam was identical to the PHS exam.

Show quote history

And SHHS is also GDST in consortium

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 10:44

minipie · 01/12/2023 10:34

I seem to recall reading on here about glitches in the Atom adaptive tests a couple of years ago, where some children never made it onto the harder questions (and so had a limited overall score) despite answering all early questions correctly. I hope/assume this got sorted.

Yes, I think some people even reported that last year. I don't know any parents who trust that the Atom algorithm is actually working, or that their child will see questions at an appropriate level. When your children have put so much work into this process, it's pretty disheartening when you can't trust the integrity of the process.

PreplexJ · 01/12/2023 10:45

Ilikelists · 01/12/2023 10:41

Last year my daughter was sure the mock atom test they did in her prep school had the same questions as the Putney and the consortium exam. I chalked it up to similar questions but slightly different numbers - it could be that they were actually the same. Since they never went over the answers I think if you got it right or wrong the first time you probably got it right or wrong the second time too.

I think everyear there is people in MN reported exam question the same.

For example for link below: some DC reported Atom is exactly the same as one ISEB question.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/3942268-Atom-Learning-useful-When-to-start?reply=97574807&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

DD took two CEM select test last year also reported some maths question and NVR the same, but I guess she meant look very similar..

Atom Learning, useful? When to start? | Mumsnet

I have been recommended to subscribe to Atom Learning for my 10yo DD who will be sitting 11+ exams for independent schools. Some pre tests shall be ha...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/3942268-Atom-Learning-useful-When-to-start?reply=97574807

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 10:45

PreplexJ · 01/12/2023 10:42

And SHHS is also GDST in consortium

Show quote history

Ah, yes, sorry, I forgot that one.

QuiteAJourney · 01/12/2023 10:47

@PreplexJ @11PlusCraziness agree, GDST membership is not the issue as some use Atom (be it in Consortium, like SHHS, or not, like Putney) and some not. Atom seems to be the common thread of the issues reported.

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 10:49

@QuiteAJourney , wow that would be worse that they all are different schools groups, with same types of exams questions and answers via Atom.
So DC, can after one exam day, review and concentrate on set of questions they found tricky and find themselves in same questions a few days later and get higher marks…even if it is 2 more correct the percentage increase would be better.

ThePlacesYouGo · 01/12/2023 11:04

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 10:49

@QuiteAJourney , wow that would be worse that they all are different schools groups, with same types of exams questions and answers via Atom.
So DC, can after one exam day, review and concentrate on set of questions they found tricky and find themselves in same questions a few days later and get higher marks…even if it is 2 more correct the percentage increase would be better.

😱

PreplexJ · 01/12/2023 11:06

minipie · 01/12/2023 10:30

Gosh how ridiculous if the same questions turn up at multiple schools. As you say, it puts those who’ve already tackled those questions at an advantage.

But it also makes this whole process of turning up to many slightly different exams even more daft. Why can the schools not just all agree on a single shared exam - or maybe two with different formats (multiple choice/long written) to allow for “off days” and different school preferences.

The current London 11+ Consortium used to be one North London Consortium test (paper) with pretty much same set of schools plus NLCS and CLSG. And in the end NLCS and CLSG left the consortium exam because these two schools don't think the Consortium paper can give them the freedom on control on standards and marks to bring in the girls they want.

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 11:17

PreplexJ · 01/12/2023 11:06

The current London 11+ Consortium used to be one North London Consortium test (paper) with pretty much same set of schools plus NLCS and CLSG. And in the end NLCS and CLSG left the consortium exam because these two schools don't think the Consortium paper can give them the freedom on control on standards and marks to bring in the girls they want.

Show quote history

It's hard to imagine that Atom's days managing the London Consortium aren't numbered given this year's fiasco.

So far, it looks like PHS, Ibstock, SHS and the whole of the London Consortium had large chunks of the exam repeated. That's clearly unacceptable.

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 11:19

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 10:49

@QuiteAJourney , wow that would be worse that they all are different schools groups, with same types of exams questions and answers via Atom.
So DC, can after one exam day, review and concentrate on set of questions they found tricky and find themselves in same questions a few days later and get higher marks…even if it is 2 more correct the percentage increase would be better.

It wasn't the same types of questions. It was exactly the same questions from one exam to the next! So you can actually discuss the precise answer to a precise question and then answer it again at the next exam confident you're getting it right.

PreplexJ · 01/12/2023 11:27

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 11:17

It's hard to imagine that Atom's days managing the London Consortium aren't numbered given this year's fiasco.

So far, it looks like PHS, Ibstock, SHS and the whole of the London Consortium had large chunks of the exam repeated. That's clearly unacceptable.

Show quote history

Ibstock is on CEM select last year, and maybe a lot of parents/prep complain after that so they switch to Atom this year? If prep or parents complain again this year they may switch back to GL or CEM?

No doubt Atom is a dominating force in the private sector for exam tutor/prep/exam itself nowadays. It is a monopoly. Same as GL in the maintained sector. One issue it bring out it seems that it commodities the value of prep school exam preparations for these target schools.

I think it would be better to have these kind of online multiple choice as first round pre-sceening to reduce the applicant numbers and follow up with second round written papers and interviews. , individualised to schools.

But then I am sure some parents will complain about the lengthy process than add unnecessary burden to the 10 years old kids. It is hard to strike the right balance for every schools.

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 11:29

@11PlusCraziness , agree with you. Unacceptable and unfair to those that can’t afford Atom subscription or sit multiple schools exams. Same questions and same answers on different dates as you mentioned.

SamPoodle123 · 01/12/2023 11:34

HawaiiWake · 01/12/2023 10:29

Atom sells online tutoring, one to one tutoring and set exams. Does sounds like a cartel/ monopoly vibe there. GDST schools have the same exams? Or just a few questions that are the same? This is a concern for this year since it allows some DC sitting the exams the ability to speed up answering time.
Atom is a business but have anyone been able to check their algorithms? You get higher marks as you pass easy questions accurately, but is it checked that is the case? We all know the issues with AI and general software glitches so who is tracking Atom exams fairness? When DC used Atom, we had to report lots of glitches, freezing pages, etc. Customer service was great but we needed to take screen shots and emailed.

One thing about the papers exams of Latymer Upper and Emanuel is that the papers can be marked and double checked by teachers.

We had and still have the same thing with glitches when using Atom. I do not think it is perfect. It is concerning.

11plu01 · 01/12/2023 11:41

Definitely outrageous and unacceptable. We had many issues with Atom these past weeks leading up to the exams regarding repetitive mock questions (they market their mocks as unique questions every time which is very misleading). They have limited data bank causing this issue that they are aware of and yet have failed to be transparent about this to subscribers.

farfallarocks · 01/12/2023 11:45

I think it’s time to rethink this entire process. It’s a circus and one I feel obliged to participate in sadly.
what would make it better? Perhaps a ucas stule
system ? Apply for 5 schools max with a preference system? More weight placed on school reports?

farfallarocks · 01/12/2023 11:45

Hopefully dds spelling better than mine 😂

11PlusCraziness · 01/12/2023 11:49

11plu01 · 01/12/2023 11:41

Definitely outrageous and unacceptable. We had many issues with Atom these past weeks leading up to the exams regarding repetitive mock questions (they market their mocks as unique questions every time which is very misleading). They have limited data bank causing this issue that they are aware of and yet have failed to be transparent about this to subscribers.

Yes, I have sent many emails to Atom about duplicated questions (I think they must have only about 80 examples per question type for each age group given our experience). So many parents - myself included - have been nervous about Atom setting the exams and whether they were really everything Atom claim (bespoke and completely adaptive) and I fear that all our worst suspicions have been realised.