Would you turn down this State school for an independent school? (a bit long!)

[QueenMeabhOfConnaught]

Opinions wanted.

Ds has been offered a place at the local Comp 15 mins walk away but he also has a place at an independent school.

The independent school has the usual advantages - excellent exam results, lovely grounds, fabulous facilities etc etc etc. No-one else from his primary would be going there. It is 20 mins walk away.

The State school is a rather run-down 1960s building achieving 53% A*-C GCSEs including Maths & English, average GCSE points per student of 419.9 and added value of 997.5. Quite a few children from his primary will be going there. It got a "Good" Ofsted - level 2s on everything but language provision isn't great and they don't do separate sciences. It has a new head who seems pretty strict.

Dh thinks that the State school isn't good enough and would prefer the independent school. I think the State school isn't bad (it's actually one of the better ones in this borough) plus it is free. School fees would be manageable for one child - two will be difficult.

Would you be happy with these kinds of results or is dh right?

I think this depends largely on your child. If he is intelligent and motivated to work and achieve his best then it is likely that he will do well wherever he was placed. I went to a comprehensive and my work ethic got me through even though the school had fairly low expectations of their pupils.

Although I know you are talking about secondary level my ds goes to an independant prep school because I took the view that he would not achieve his best without smaller class sizes. He is easily distracted and not vastly motivated to work. Had I had dd first she would definitely have gone to the state alternative as she is much more motivated and has a desire to please that was absent in ds when we were looking for schools for him.

I would take the independent option in this case. A 53% A*-C pass rate in GCSE means that almost half the children will not receive what the government terms an acceptable level of education and what many parents and employers would still consider the bare minimum.

I think it really comes down to finances. Can you comfortably afford the fees and the extras? Will you be able to afford for ds to go on the school trips that come up? Will it be a struggle for you to go on holiday as a family?

Your local comp is a lot better than ours but it's an interesting thought as to where you draw the line as to what is good enough. My thoughts are that it depends a fair bit on your child as some children at independent schools make a lot more use of the facilities than others. For instance, if your child is very sporty, then having lots of teams and sports facilities is great, but many children don't gain much from great sports facilities as they're just not interested. Similarly if your child is very into music or drama then they will probably benefit more from the add-ons at the independent school. If your child is fairly bright and likely to be in the top set at the comp. then they will probably do well there, if your child is likely to be in one of the lower sets where the behaviour is more challenging then maybe the independent with smaller classes might suit better.

School fees always seem to go up more than you expect year on year.

No separate sciences...could be tricky if ds wants to be a doctor or vet
Poor language provision that would clinch it for me I'm afraid
53% A-Cs, also, as annh says, that's not great.
I would be thinking hard about that independent place, tbh
Never mind your dh, what does your ds think?

On balance you are right snorkle but from what queenmeabh says, even the brightest children at the local state school are not well served by either the science or the languages curriculum
Those are two big core areas of learning to be underresourced for an academically bright child

Duel science is fine for science degrees and medicine so not an issue. Languages granted - but for the fees saved you could holiday abroad probably several times a year and compensate for the poor provision with real life practice!

Ds definitely wants to go to the independent school. He is very musical and quiet and reserved but not sporty at all!

I am concerned about the science and language teaching. At Open Evening I asked one of the teachers about children doing more than one language and she said that it hadn't happened during her time at the school .

Paying the fees for ds1 will be fine but with ds2 two years behind we would not be able to pay for trips etc for two of them on top of the fees (unless I get a better job - always an option, I suppose).

Good grief - don't tell me dh is right for once!!!

Just seen your post, snorkle - so you can definitely do A-levels and degrees in sciences without doing separate sciences at GCSE?

Not having separate sciences isn't necessarily a disaster - I know children who have done double science GCSE then gone on to be vets/doctors or whatever.

Language provision - that would bother me. Why isn't it great, in what way does it fall short?

The 53% pass rate would not necessarily bother me - if that school is taking the whole range of pupils (and their parents!), then by definition it will not get the same results as a school selecting by ability to pay and ability of the child. Doesn't mean the school is a poor one.

Finances - you seem doubtful about this. If you honestly feel you could not offer the same chance to both your children, I think you have to think long and hard about letting your son go there.

The fact that you are concerned and supportive and that your son is obviously bright means he will be in a privileged position wherever he goes, and there is no reason to suppose he will not do well wherever he goes.

Tell us more about your son - what are his strength and weaknesses?

Tbh a single statistic doesn't really give you a feel for what the experience of your child would be. It may be the case that he would automatically be in the top set at the state school where the average outcome could be 10 GCSEs at A/A*.

I think that you need to be able to assess roughly where within the range your ds would come academically in each school, and how would this impact his experience of the school. For example, lower streams in independent schools do not always get the best teachers. And what about extra-curricular stuff, sport, music, drama, cimmunity service etc. Apart from the academic results the single thing that depressed me most about our local comp was the very small number of pupils taking music lessons.

I'd really worry about the science thing if my dc seemed into it at all. I know you can catch up from double award science, but doing 3 science A levels after double award would be REALLY tricky. I'd worry about science much more than languages (agree w snorkle, you could have lots of foreign holidays for that, or extra lessons...)
I am DREADING these decisions...

Ah, cross-post. Tbh if ds wants to go, and has got a place, then this discussion is at least 6 months too late isn't it?

I'm still plumping for the independent choice in this case. You don't know what may happen in two years - your ds2 might get a scholarship, as you said you could possibly get a better job, lots of things may come along to change your circumstances. Dh and I are having the small mental struggle at the moment but in our case, our default state school has just been OFSTEDed and had all 1's (without exception) and has a far higher percentage of A-C grades than your local comp. However, we still struggle with the fact that when we visited the local comp we were shown around by a couple of perfectly pleasant, but giggling, girls whom you really couldn't imagine being anywhere near ready to hit the world of work. Whereas, our favoured independent school seemed to be stuffed to the gills with bright, motivated, polite, intelligent young men, any of whom I felt I would like my ds to grown into. But it is a horribly complicated and expensive decision to make. We also have two ds and like you will struggle with the second set of fees.

But most foreign holidays don't really improve your language skills that much, confidence possibly.
I'd go for your ds's choice tbh.

on the science thing again, I also feel that science is SO important that it should at least be possible for it to be give 3 full 'slots' (3/10 or 3/9 of your education on science isn't all that much!)
My DH did a science degree (a while ago now), at oxbridge: no double-awarders there...

sounds like you're leaning towards independent, which is fine, BUT 53% achieving A*-C at GCSE doesn't mean that half aren't receiving the education they should. It means that 47% can't manage those grades with the education they're getting. That could mean that the education is poor, or it could mean the intake has many children who would never achieve those grades, even with excellent education. That is why league tables should be taken with a pinch of salt....it could be that the education is excellent, and that many of those 47% would have WORSE results with a different set of teachers. You need to look at the demographics of the school, not just the exam results.

I would also think hard before committing yourself to independent school for one child, if you can't afford it for two. What are you going to do when your second child moves up if you haven't got a better job? Do you move 1st child back to state school after he's settled in and made his friends, or do you send 2nd child to a school that wasn't good enough for your 1st....

My concern about languages is that they did not appear to be valued at the school - maybe my expectations are too high in this regard? At my very ordinary school everyone did 3 languages up to (what is now called) Year 9. At the local school they begin with French in Year 7, then can drop it in Year 8 and do German instead - nobody does both.

Yes I am worried about the fees - it is a huge commitment. I do think paying for both children would be hard but I'm not a big spender anyway so I wouldn't feel it as much as some people (like my sister, say, who is an incurable shopper!).

You have a point, LadyMuck - six months ago we were both set on the independent school but I am now wondering if it is money well spent?

Ds is level 5s in everything, top sets at primary - blah, blah - so should be in the top set at the Comp. Ds2 is a more resilient character - I would expect him to be one of those "will do well anywhere" types. But ds1 is a gentle, thoughtful boy who is quite immature and can get lost in the crowd.

Oh, I don't know..........

Things have changed with regard to MFL provision QueenMaebh - I think what the state school now offers is the minimum required, sadly. It's the law of diminishing returns.
State schools with specialist language college status offer more choice, as do state grammars where they still exist and, the independent sector.
I am hopelessly biased as I am a linguist and ds clearly has potential in this area, but for me, assigning a low priority to MFL is a big turn-off in a school, regardless of sector or other facilities etc

Any chance at all of a bursary at the school (I am guessing he did not enter for a scholarship place)? He sounds eligible on academic grounds. How musical is he? do they offer music scholarships?
You could ring the School's Bursar and see if there is anything the school can do to help...

I've taught in the independent sector and would say that the advantages are not always the same throughout the sector but it is rare that they don't exceed the advantages of even the best state schools. the resources are far in excess of state schools because of obvious funding issues. It really comes down to finances, its a huge financial commitment to make for 2 children, remeber the additional cost of uniform, school trips and the inevitable 'extras' for a lot of things, but if you are prepared to afford it I couldn't recommend it more highly. I have 3DC and would have trouble to find money to educate even one privately but if i could afford independent i would definely choose it. the only situation i wouldn't recommend it would be if your DS didn't want to go, if he does then send him if you can.

QMOC, You can do 3 science A levels following dual science GCSE. You start with a small disadvantage over those who have done seperate sciences but it's caught up in just a few lessons I'm told. Talk to Martianbishop on this - she is an expert. At my dc's (private) school three sciences is an option but many are encouraged to do double (and take an extra language) to give a broader range of GCSEs. Once you have done science A levels what you did at GCSE is irrelevent.

On the languages you can do things to help yourself if the school doesn't, including organising exchange trips which are hugely beneficial. To teach a whole extra language outside school though is not easy at all, but if you really wanted to, an outside tutor once a week for 4 years ought to be sufficient (this is how mandarin and japanese are taught at my dcs school).

I'm not saying deffo go for state (would be exceedingly hipocritical of me), but some of the obstacles are not insurmountable.

I agree, Marina, that languages are really important. No chance of a bursary, unfortunately!

Another state school we looked at offered French & Latin in Year 7, adding German in Year 8 so I didn't realise that things had changed so much!

I must go and get both the horrors now but will check again later to see if anyone else would like to make this decision for me!!!!!!

Bumping this because - well, I'm like that.