Would you turn down this State school for an independent school? (a bit long!)

[QueenMeabhOfConnaught]

Opinions wanted.

Ds has been offered a place at the local Comp 15 mins walk away but he also has a place at an independent school.

The independent school has the usual advantages - excellent exam results, lovely grounds, fabulous facilities etc etc etc. No-one else from his primary would be going there. It is 20 mins walk away.

The State school is a rather run-down 1960s building achieving 53% A*-C GCSEs including Maths & English, average GCSE points per student of 419.9 and added value of 997.5. Quite a few children from his primary will be going there. It got a "Good" Ofsted - level 2s on everything but language provision isn't great and they don't do separate sciences. It has a new head who seems pretty strict.

Dh thinks that the State school isn't good enough and would prefer the independent school. I think the State school isn't bad (it's actually one of the better ones in this borough) plus it is free. School fees would be manageable for one child - two will be difficult.

Would you be happy with these kinds of results or is dh right?

Roisin - we're in same position. Dd got first choice - fantastic school - but already has her heart set on independent. She's put so much effort into the whole process it seems cruel not to let her go to the school she really wants. We could just about afford it but obviously it would be great to save the money!

Sorry - posted on wrong thread!!

Is your ds going to be among the 53% with at least 5 A-C passes? Because if so (and it sounds like he is) then does it really matter what anyone else gets??
Don't think the science would necessarily be a problem. Many schools do this these days. Only being able to study one language for GCSE could be limiting if he's dead keen, but one language is enough for university.
Try to evaluate what you're actually going to get for your money with the private school - what is there over and above what the state one has to offer? If your ds has specific talents then it might be worth considering, but you're certainly doing the right thing by considering the issue rather than doing the kneejerk 'I'm paying therefore it must be better'. My ds was in private for a while as he was a chorister , and could not have had that experience without going private, which was fine, but once his voice broke, he chose to leave, and tbh I'm very happy with the decision as our local state school is excellent and apart from the music, the teaching at the private school wasnt amazing. It's also worth thinking long term and considering whether applying for university from a state school may be an advantage.... Good luck with what you decide

Thanks alfiesbabe. Lots of considering to do, I'm afraid.

QMOC - I've just added a note to the GCSE options thread and looking through it the double vs seperate science issue is discussed on that - if you look back through it you can see Martianbishop has had students go on medicine and vetinary science from double science. Link to thread here.

You are great, snorkle - thank you!!!

That is good to hear snorkle. At my old school (admittedly when combined sciences were in their infancy) ALL our prospective doctors and physicists left in the sixth form to do separate sciences elsewhere, on the advice of university admissions tutors
Glad things have changed but still think one language in the school environment is a shocker because of the whole-community message it conveys that MFL is hardly significant any more. Agree tutors etc can overcome this lack but it is a loss to the school at large IMO
Made your mind up yet Queen Meabh?

marina - I agree totally about the languages. Interesting to hear how things were over sciences - I wonder if it's still the same for some universities/courses? The debate has suddenly (since this afternoon!) taken on a new significance for me as it looks as though ds may choose the double science option over separate ones due to an unexpected computing choice turning up on his options sheet which he bought home today. I'm worrying if because he's at an independent school where seperate sciences are offered universities will expect him to have done them? I imagine they cut state schools that don't offer them more slack or am I being overly paranoid? Talk about eating my words from earlier - I can now totally see why people might be worried about this!

See GCSE choice thread here

if your ds wants to go and he's got a place how's he going to feel if you turn around and tell him he's got to go to the local comp??

I don't neccessarily think that being able to afford (or not) school fees for your ds2 should be a deciding factor. You'll need to make decisions about ds2's education independently of ds1's - they are different children after all

ds1 is at an independent secondary, where he's absolutely thriving having been miserable at his state primary - it was definitely the right decision for him - however, ds1 and ds2 are chalk and cheese so I'm not sure that ds1's school would be right for ds2 - in fact, at the moment I'm leaning towards the partially selective 'outstanding' local comprehensive which would have been disastrous for ds1. It's much more important to consider which school's right for each child

The important thing to remember when you're comparing rtesults is that a grammar shcool or an independent school is certain to have much better resulrs because most of the children who aren't going to do well are selected out at admission.

53% A-C is good if you take into account that there will probably be a significant number of chiildren in the school that won't get and a-c's ar all - or indeed any gcse's at all.

At my daughter's school, for example, nearly 100% get A-C - but then the bloody well should - it takes the top 25% of the cohort. The High school gets 38%ish - but the top 25% have already been creamed off to the grammar and another significant percentage arent't at school often enough to be told when the exams are, never mind to work for them. Looked at like this, the 38% is brilliant - and most of the children of committed, involved parents like those on Mumsnet are going to be in that 38%. It's not that clever children go to a school with results like that and suddenly start doing badly. They help make up the 38%!

Exactly Seeker. If your child gets their good set of GCSEs, you (and they) are not going to give a flying f*!k whether 49% or 99% of the other kids did.

On double versus triple science, you might be aware that state schools are now being encouraged to offer triple science. I think everyone who gets Level 6 at KS3 is entitled to study triple. Won't this mean that triple science will become more common and, rightly or wrongly, devalue double as a consequence?

Thanks for all your advice, folks. I am still struggling to decide.

I know that the raw figures shouldn't matter and, technically speaking, if he is bright he ought to do well at the local Comp. I suppose my real fear is that he won't achieve and I will regret sending him there. I am undoubtedly influenced by my brother's experience - he was an extremely bright boy who left school with 3 CSEs (showing my age there!) after being turned off education at his mediocre school.

Mimsum, you make a valid point that ds will probably be disappointed if he doesn't go to the independent school.

I think if the state school is OK, then save the money and spend it on other stuff - holidays, trips, books, music lessons - just other stuff, really!

But is doesn't really sound as if the state school is ok, I personally disagree that for a non selective comp that 53% is an acceptable percentage, better schools would have that in the high 60's or more.
I'd personally rather spend the money on their education, than on fripperies, materila goods and expensive holidays.
Also extras might not be too much, many independent schools are well aware parents struggle to pay the fees, and don't load the bills with other stuff.

46.7% is national average for GCSE results, so you'd expect an average non-selective comp to get the same. 53% is above average. BUt really you have to consider what the ability of the entrants is like: if it's a below average catchment then that's really very good, if it's above average then maybe not. Out of interest what is the value add?

That's it, batters - can I assume that he will do well at the Comp just because he is bright? My brother didn't, will my ds be different?

The CVA is 997.5 so the kids are achieving just about what is expected.

It is the second best (non-religious) Comp in the area - the best one gets 63% (although that was a giant leap on last year's result).

What is the intake like at the comp? Would your son whom you describe as quiet and reserved, fit in there, or would he be better in the private school with smaller class sizes and the extra curricular activities that go with private school territory?

I would go for the private school personally. I was a teacher in the state sector, and my DS has been privately educated from the ground up, and will continue to be so. It's the ethos of the school that counts...if a value is placed on education in the broadest sense then the students will do well. Unfortunately, in some comps, if certain members of a cohort decide that they don't want to learn then the rest follow like lemmings, and the results go down.

You have to select a school on the basis of the child. I went to comp, my brother boarded, and neither of us wanted what the other had. Go with the gut instinct for your child.

The intake at the Comp is fairly mixed although like a lot of secondary schools, it appeared very loud and boisterous when we visited. Would he fit in there? Well, considering he sticks out like a sore thumb at primary, maybe not.

I truly have visions of him being beaten to a pulp on his first day - but the poor school really isn't that bad!!! No-one has beaten him to death at primary yet although he has had numerous comments about being a "swot" and being "posh" and he has been pushed around a bit. (We are NOT posh, btw!)

In all fairness, can I do what's best for him without considering ds2? If so, I would go for the independent school.

QueenMeabh, no, I don't think you can ignore your DS2's future needs. If you paid for both, would you just be giving up luxuries or are we talking serious debt? If the former, I'd consider the independent school(but try to bear in mind how I would really feel about the luxuries in question, and whether it would lead to my putting undue pressure on my children to succeed in order to make it all worthwhile), if the latter, I wouldn't.

I think you have to be fair to both children or your ds2 may well resent it. Unless your ds2 actively chose not to go to the independent or there was some overiding reason (other than money) why you felt it wouldn't be a good choice for him, then it wouldn't be right imo.

However, if ds1 tried the comp & was bullied and you moved him I'd feel that was less unfair on your ds2 if he subsequently went to the comp and stuck it out (so long as you would be prepared to move him too if he was bullied).

fees seem to rise by 8%-10% per year btw.

not much to add in the way of advice BUT
if your child is musical, then you need to think carefully about where you would find the money to continue to encourage that?
also, I think it is a huge mistake to consider independent school for one child and not for another in a family. it is my personal experience that this can build up significant resentments within a family and leave bad feelings, between siblings and parents.

by the way, just because a school seems a bit loud and boisterous, doesn't mean you need to be loud and boisterous to fit in.
there is room for different sorts of people in a school - sporty, academic, musical, arty, rebellious, studious.
there are some pretty broad assumptions being made here, I think.

can you go and look around both schools again before you decide?