Private school to ditch GCSEs, write own exams

[noblegiraffe]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/gcses-private-schools-london-qualification-latymer-school-b1106686.html

Not entirely sure what to make of this. Latymer Upper (I'm not really up on private schools so don't know how fancy it is) is planning to ditch GCSEs and create its own assessments to 'free up teaching time'.

I guess if it's a super-selective type school they'd be expecting all the kids to go onto A-levels anyway so aren't worried about losing GCSEs, but what of kids who want to go elsewhere? How recognised would their portfolio be?

Also, we know from covid just how good some private schools are at marking their own homework so how would anyone know if standards were being maintained?

I'm surprised that a school has enough staffing capacity to set up its own exam system tbh.

There are quite a lot of schools that already offer GCSE equivalents which are accepted by higher education institutions. These are externally moderated and also externally marked in some cases (eg the performance element of Drama). So I guess there is a process already in place to build on?

@explainthistomeplease Surely they won't have released this until they finalize their plans? This is very early days.

There are quite a lot of schools that already offer GCSE equivalents which are accepted by higher education institutions. These are externally moderated and also externally marked in some cases (eg the performance element of Drama). So I guess there is a process already in place to build on?

I think it's very dangerous to assume there are actually any quality controls in place here. For example, Ofqual stopped accrediting IGCSEs several years ago. They had previously accredited some, while others were explicitly labelled as being unapproved for use in UK maintained schools. However, private schools can use whatever qualifications they want, so they often entered students for the qualifications that weren't accredited. Now none of them are accredited and many private schools continue to use them. While the organisations who offer IGCSEs will have their own quality-assurance processes, which will include external moderation, there is no reason whatsoever to assume they are at the same level as the GCSEs that students in maintained schools have to take.

See interesting blog post from 4 years ago: https://ofqual.blog.gov.uk/2019/04/04/some-facts-about-international-gcses/.

However, universities ignore this distinction. Partly because they would have to set different sets of entry requirements and partly because they're frightened of private schools boycotting them. If there is a published requirement for certain GCSEs at a certain grade, and no distinction is made between GCSEs and IGCSEs, it sometimes be the case that private school pupils are accepted with lower standards than state school pupils.

Newspaper article from the same year: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2019/03/12/private-school-pupils-take-igcses-have-better-chance-getting/

Interestingly the private school my ds used to go to only offered IGCSE in the sciences, maths & English as they felt them to be more academically rigorous. Then after the 9-1 reforms they wrote to all parents to say that after their staff had looked at the new qualifications they were going to move across to them as they felt they were now better preparation for A level than IGCSE.

I think it is worth highlight the fact that IGCSE are different to GCSE, iGCSE offers more flexibility on sitting date and subject choices. But it is not necessarily to say one is harder than the other. There are no conclusive answer.

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/blogs/are-igcses-easier-than-gcses-a-response-from-cambridge-assessment/

Worth nothing that it is not a like for like comparison on GCSE results between private vs state schools because of this though.

But for university admission, I think it is nothing new anyway. Standard wi vary but a lot of UK universities are very international outward looking and the way they compare the equivalent qualifications for GCSE level is petty standard.

Your school sounds amazing @noblegiraffe, can you give us any indication whereabouts it is?

I'm an LU parent, I think ti's a fantastic school, with really excellent teachers and pastoral support, two dc have been very happy there. This has been known about for ages as they had to tell parents with children in the prep school who will be affected a while back (some freaked out). It doesn't affect my dc, they've both done GCSEs now (top grades since you ask) and it won't come into force for ages .... but I agree with whoever upthread said this is not about improving results, it's about broadening children's education.

It makes me laugh to see people saying my child's school is nearby and our results are better. That's great!, but it's a very West London attitude That's not why I chose the school, I liked the vibe, preferred co-ed, I like its bursary scheme which means there's a slightly more mixed cohort than other private schools (again slightly it's not perfect), albeit relative and I would point out this year's GCSE and A level results included several kids from Ukraine who've only just arrived in the UK and been given free places. But I do wonder also why do people care so much? It's literally one school and no one is obliged to send their dc there.

However, universities ignore this distinction. Partly because they would have to set different sets of entry requirements and partly because they're frightened of private schools boycotting them. If there is a published requirement for certain GCSEs at a certain grade, and no distinction is made between GCSEs and IGCSEs, it sometimes be the case that private school pupils are accepted with lower standards than state school pupils.

But presumably the same standard as the pupils at international schools who have sat the IGCSEs. I would guess they make up a higher proportion of the intake who have IGCSEs than UK private school pupils (although I haven't looked it up).

@Themagicchair - I'm also a parent and agree with everything you've written!

I love to see the very West London attitude 😂

BTW although the junior school feeds the senior school entrance there is also super competitive and the school track results the junior kids do just as well academically as those who enter at 11+ so not sure that is dragging LU's apparently unimpressive GCSEs down

UK universities don’t ask for GCSE results. They ask for A Level results. Employers want GCSE maths and english as a minimum to ensure non-degree calibre students are literate. As most private selective schools don’t need to worry about kids dropping out to work after GCSEs they can afford to scrap most of them in favour of what are essentially more in depth but specialist studies. It’s similar to the IB model which has a far better international reputation than A Levels.

Nothing had higher correlation than later stage entrance exam intake competitiveness to the public exam outcome of the School.

UK universities DO ask for GCSE results. Some take them into account more than others and some only need the minimum Grade 4/5 maths & English (my son had to send a copy of his GCSE English certificate but they do require them.

International students will be required to have equivalent alternative qualifications (remember that many other countries continue with a broader education up to age 18)

I agree with this and I don’t think it’s necessarily arrogant for private schools to ‘write a better curriculum’. I mean a lot of teachers think their curriculum is a bit shit.

My friend’s daughter went to a top private school, was the star of her year and recently graduated with a first from Oxbridge.

She is now teaching in a state school in inner London and absolutely loving it! And being promoted rapidly. It happens!

My daughter is off to university in a couple of weeks and had to scan and send her GCSE certificates a few months ago to the college she is attending.

I do think some GCSEs are just awful. Not the sciences or maths.

But the History and English prep was all about how to get the top marks. How to answer the question using key words to score marks. There was little creativity or opportunity to be interesting or thoughtful.

It made my kids never want to read or write an essay again.

But I would still not send them to a school
which didn’t do them.

I think you may have missed my point. My daughter didn't apply to LU and I have absolutely no knowledge of it, apart from the accepted 'West London parent attitude' that all these schools are much the same. I was pretty interested to see that that isn't apparently the case. Like you, I didn't pick schools for grades (although other people's grades were part of it because my daughter needed quite strongly not to be at the top of her cohort because it was making her miserable).

Maybe this is in MN, but seems like one can be easily at the top of cohort of any schools bar one?

@userresuuser

I get quite bored of the constant cynicism on MN and elsewhere about private schools' motives about everything, all the time.

But you're a private business, your school will have very different motives to state schools. And we know from covid, that when private schools were allowed to set and mark their own exams ('externally moderated' by the exam boards which we all know was balls) grades seemed to be boosted more in private schools than state ones, including one set of frankly ridiculous results coming out of one of these London private schools. So the 'constant cynicism' isn't entirely baseless, particularly looking at parent comments around those schools and the intense need for a UPS. We know that private schools previously took IGCSEs over GCSEs because apparently IGCSEs were 'more challenging', but now that IGCSEs are seen to be less challenging, instead of switching to GCSEs private schools are planning to do something else. Is there a need to be seen to be offering something 'different' to the stuff that the general public are offered also at play here?

but also because it allows schools to explore the alternatives, look at what works, have the freedom to try new methods etc, which to some extent can then filter out to the state sector (whether directly, though private/state partnership, or indirectly, through published research papers and resources, or through lobbying of government).

TBH the idea that the London private sector (which seems particularly bonkers) can possibly offer anything of interest to state schools in the rest of the country who are struggling with far greater challenges than GCSEs being a bit prescriptive to the very top students is rather patronising. A bigger problem with GCSEs for us is that they are unsuited to the lower end who wouldn't even get a look-in at those schools. But an even bigger problem than that is the lack of money, the lack of teachers and the terrible state of school buildings.

The state sector cannot withstand another massive curriculum overhaul. The idea that there are private schools with enough money and time sloshing around to set up as their own exam boards rather sticks in the throat, even before the Lady Bountiful suggestions that we might be able to learn something from it.

Your school sounds amazing @noblegiraffe, can you give us any indication whereabouts it is?

It's not in London.

And it's not amazing, it's a crumbling, asbestos-riddled, short of teachers, short of money comprehensive. So I'm a bit surprised to be unimpressed by the maths results of a school that is far better funded and resourced than mine.

@noblegiraffe Agree with everything you've said and very well put. My DD has just moved into Y9 in a private special school funded by her EHCP. She's come from a very good state inner city comp with excellent behaviour management, results, staffing (didn't have a supply in any subjects last year bar one or two lessons. Specialist teachers in maths, science and English. However, I've heard most left last term and it's a shit show now) and an eco building with air con, air filters and nothing leaking. Essentially paradise, compared to a lot of comps. I had a meeting at the private school recently and when I described why it may take her a while to get used to their behaviour policy, described the types of fights she's witnessed and the rigid behaviour policy she's used to, they were so shocked and said it sounds like the school should be shut down. I wanted to laugh. If they think thats worthy of shutting down imagine what they'd think of a shitty comp. Private schools have absolutely no clue about the realities of state schools and to suggest any curriculum changes they're planning would be of wider benefit, is absurd. Absurd. And clueless.

Of course many teachers and other staff know about the realities of the State system. many of them went to state schools, have taught at state schools and send their children to state schools. In the same way that many state school teachers went to private schools, have taught at private schools and send their children to private schools.

In addition both of the schools my DCs are at do a lot of partnership work with local state schools, both senior and primary and the teachers and other staff work on committees etc together.
I really don't see the outrage. A private school has decided to change the way it goes about things- it's not suggesting that the rest of the country should follow or that they're better than anyone else. In fact they're saying they can do this because 99% of their students will do A levels. Obviously schools where many children'n only qualifications will be GCSEs would find it trickier.

Parents can send their children there or not. It's their choice.

@DynastywasthebestTV my comment was explicitly regarding this:

"but also because it allows schools to explore the alternatives, look at what works, have the freedom to try new methods etc, which to some extent can then filter out to the state sector (whether directly, though private/state partnership, or indirectly, through published research papers and resources, or through lobbying of government)."

Private schools can do whatever they want, I couldn't care less. However, the assumption that it'll benefit the state system is absurd. The govt doesn't give a damn about the current basic building safety laws. The idea they'll care about some research paper is just hilarious. I just often get the impression these schools think they're doing the lord's work. It's hilarious. Also, unless you're currently working in a state school you've no idea what it's like. Even parents with kids in them haven't a clue of the severity of the shit show currently at play. Wherever you went to school or worked before has no bearing on this. Sorry.

I think you might be a bit naive. I went to a different SW London private but had many friends at LU. A few who were in my year at LU are now primary school teachers. My step sister who attended a big name boarding school is now a primary school teacher.