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Private school to ditch GCSEs, write own exams

234 replies

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2023 19:40

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/gcses-private-schools-london-qualification-latymer-school-b1106686.html

Not entirely sure what to make of this. Latymer Upper (I'm not really up on private schools so don't know how fancy it is) is planning to ditch GCSEs and create its own assessments to 'free up teaching time'.

I guess if it's a super-selective type school they'd be expecting all the kids to go onto A-levels anyway so aren't worried about losing GCSEs, but what of kids who want to go elsewhere? How recognised would their portfolio be?

Also, we know from covid just how good some private schools are at marking their own homework so how would anyone know if standards were being maintained?

I'm surprised that a school has enough staffing capacity to set up its own exam system tbh.

More private schools could ditch GCSE after London school announces own qualification

Latymer Upper School will drop all GCSEs except maths and English

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/gcses-private-schools-london-qualification-latymer-school-b1106686.html

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BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:20

DynastywasthebestTV · 14/09/2023 23:15

Bit isn't that the school that gets almost the top results in the country? Once you take out the 'top' 4 or 5 they are all fairly similar ish.

Yes, it is. But it is interesting to me for exactly the reason I stated which is that when you talk to parents they all claim that results are very similar in all these schools. I assumed that was true, but it obviously isn't. I hadn't actually bothered to look before because I had not considered any of the other Hammersmith schools since I didn't think they'd be a good fit for my child.

I'm not doing Latymer down. I am sure it's a good school and hopefully its pupils are happy and fulfilled which is a lot more important than results. I'm just interested because I hear a lot of this 'all these schools are much the same' and that clearly isn't true (quite probably because of the selection process).

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:22

The feeling of grade superiority is definitely a feature for some schools.

We can take a LOOK GCSE 2023
SPGS 98.8% 7-9 93.9% 8-9 no junior school
NLCS 99% 7-9 93% 8-9 with a large junior school
HBS 97% 7-9 97% 8-9 state grammar 1/3 of funding (but some GCSE is not direct comparable)
LU (coed) 93% 7-9 with a large junior school

BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:24

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:16

These London super selective private schools do bear very similar results, if you take out the "selective" factor (most school has pre-school will go straight through) - all you end up is few percentage point (usually less than 10%) differences.

I don't think it is 10% differences.

Here is the spread of GCSE results in the same year at DD's school (I haven't calculated the percentages but on a quick glance, it doesn't look like that to me).

https://spgs.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/GCSE-Results-2019.pdf

https://spgs.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/GCSE-Results-2019.pdf

DynastywasthebestTV · 14/09/2023 23:25

I can't find Michaelas detailed GCSE results but anyway the whole point is that parents choose particular schools for a whole variety of reasons, not just exam results.

BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:27

I wasn't actually particularly interested in grades when I chose my daughter's school since she is clever and I think she would have done fine in almost any school in terms of grades (not so much in terms of fitting in). But when you look at the 2019 grades linked above by Noble, we have 47% 9s at Latymer compared to 85% 9s at SPGS. Which is quite a difference, I think. I don't think Latymer offers automatic entry from the junior to the senior school, does it? If it does, that would obviously make a difference.

noblegiraffe · 14/09/2023 23:29

Well, if you were interested in grades, then you might be put off by Latymer's....and now they're looking to ditch GCSEs.

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PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:29

BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:24

I don't think it is 10% differences.

Here is the spread of GCSE results in the same year at DD's school (I haven't calculated the percentages but on a quick glance, it doesn't look like that to me).

https://spgs.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/GCSE-Results-2019.pdf

99.5% 7-9 vs 92% 7-9?

Perhaps you mean 8-9 % then it is more than 10% in 2019 but again the school has a large junior section.

DynastywasthebestTV · 14/09/2023 23:29

BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:27

I wasn't actually particularly interested in grades when I chose my daughter's school since she is clever and I think she would have done fine in almost any school in terms of grades (not so much in terms of fitting in). But when you look at the 2019 grades linked above by Noble, we have 47% 9s at Latymer compared to 85% 9s at SPGS. Which is quite a difference, I think. I don't think Latymer offers automatic entry from the junior to the senior school, does it? If it does, that would obviously make a difference.

It is automatic.
I think you are probably quite unusual as everyone I know who applied to SPGS was obsessed with their exam results!

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:31

DynastywasthebestTV · 14/09/2023 23:29

It is automatic.
I think you are probably quite unusual as everyone I know who applied to SPGS was obsessed with their exam results!

This is also a big factor, parents (maybe a few exceptions in MN) push for highest ranking tend to push the highest for GCSE.

BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:32

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:29

99.5% 7-9 vs 92% 7-9?

Perhaps you mean 8-9 % then it is more than 10% in 2019 but again the school has a large junior section.

No, you have to look at the percentages of 9s, 8s and 7s individually to get a proper comparison. It's a very different spread of results. Very interesting.

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:32

noblegiraffe · 14/09/2023 23:29

Well, if you were interested in grades, then you might be put off by Latymer's....and now they're looking to ditch GCSEs.

Because they want a better IB or a level grades for university which matters more.

BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:36

DynastywasthebestTV · 14/09/2023 23:29

It is automatic.
I think you are probably quite unusual as everyone I know who applied to SPGS was obsessed with their exam results!

Ah, I did not know it was automatic. That does definitely make a difference.

The interesting stuff is all stuff you can't necessarily see - I mean, I would be fascinated to see what the breakdown is from 11+ entrants compared to kids from the junior school. And I would love to be able to see the breakdown results for top set kids from comprehensives (I don't think what you can see on the DfE website is enough to really understand what's going on).

I honestly was not interested in grades. I don't think DD would have got radically different results in any school (though she has obviously benefited from a good amount of funding compared to a state school) but I do know she would not have had the same curriculum opportunities and I don't think she would have spent quite so much lesson time going off at tangents on stuff that absolutely wasn't in the curriculum. That is what I wanted for her.

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:37

BonjourCrisette · 14/09/2023 23:32

No, you have to look at the percentages of 9s, 8s and 7s individually to get a proper comparison. It's a very different spread of results. Very interesting.

The other way to look at it is LU has a large portion of students 50%+ achieve the same grade as SPGS.

noblegiraffe · 14/09/2023 23:53

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 23:32

Because they want a better IB or a level grades for university which matters more.

Given that they require a grade 8 to do A-level maths and a 9 for Further maths, I'm not blown away by their A-level results either.

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PreplexJ · 15/09/2023 00:15

noblegiraffe · 14/09/2023 23:53

Given that they require a grade 8 to do A-level maths and a 9 for Further maths, I'm not blown away by their A-level results either.

Maybe that is why they want to skip GCSE and have more time prep for better A levels than other counterparties?

noblegiraffe · 15/09/2023 00:27

You're suggesting that they game the system by taking 3 years to deliver a two year course to make up for the fact that they can't get the grades you'd expect from the kids in front of them?

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MarchingFrogs · 15/09/2023 00:31

noblegiraffe · 15/09/2023 00:27

You're suggesting that they game the system by taking 3 years to deliver a two year course to make up for the fact that they can't get the grades you'd expect from the kids in front of them?

Which in itself might backfire - don't some medical schools, at least, specify that A levels should have been taken in 2 years, not longer? Or have they all dropped that?

Hungrygiraffe · 15/09/2023 05:16

don't some medical schools, at least, specify that A levels should have been taken in 2 years, not longer?

Isn’t this more to do with them all being sat at the same time though? Surely they can’t tell when the preparation started?

PreplexJ · 15/09/2023 06:44

noblegiraffe · 15/09/2023 00:27

You're suggesting that they game the system by taking 3 years to deliver a two year course to make up for the fact that they can't get the grades you'd expect from the kids in front of them?

I won't say it is game the system if the system itself is fault or redundant.

One of main objective of these education institution is to fully realize the students potential. If it thinks there is a better way to prepare the students to product a better grades than the current convention why not?

VeloVixen · 15/09/2023 06:44

PreplexJ · 14/09/2023 21:29

Is your programme a science related course though?

Not particularly.

MarchingFrogs · 15/09/2023 06:50

Surely they can’t tell when the preparation started?

School's special new certificate and Eng Lang, Maths GCSEs achieved in 20xx, A levels taken in 20xx plus 3/4 years? What else will they have been doing in the time in between?

userresuuser · 15/09/2023 07:24

NC for this post. I work at a school that's at a very early stage of considering this (not LU). I get quite bored of the constant cynicism on MN and elsewhere about private schools' motives about everything, all the time. The reason we're looking into this has NOTHING to do with being disappointed in our GCSE grades. It has NOTHING to do with wanting to stop our pupils leaving at 16. (A new course would need to be fully accredited, externally moderated, and recognised by universities for us to consider it, so our pupils could still quite happily move at sixth form - just as many international students already do, who haven't done GCSEs). It has everything to do with us not liking the GCSE curriculum very much in many subjects.

I totally get the arguments that say that private schools shouldn't be allowed to do this, because there should be a universal qualification at 16. I also take on the chin the argument that it's a bit arrogant of private schools to think they can write a better curriculum than the rest of the country, and that it's unfair that only those with money can benefit. But I would counter that quite a few state schools are also calling for an end or a change to GCSEs, for similar reasons. And that there are benefits to private schools being outside state control - yes, mainly for their own students and parents, because they can choose the education they want for their children, free of the diktats of government, but also because it allows schools to explore the alternatives, look at what works, have the freedom to try new methods etc, which to some extent can then filter out to the state sector (whether directly, though private/state partnership, or indirectly, through published research papers and resources, or through lobbying of government).

We may or may not go down this route. Other schools may or may not follow. The government may or may not decide to radically reform the age 16 qualifications. But if they do, i imagine they'll be looking quite closely at what schools like LU have done, as well as at courses like MYP. But in the meantime can we not at least have a debate about the merits of change, without just going back to the same old 'private schools are purely self-interested' arguments ALL the time? Some of us are actually pretty interested in pedagogy and teaching and learning approaches and curriculum design in principle, not just because we want to keep the fees rolling in. You know, like state school teachers are.

HighRopes · 15/09/2023 07:42

What user said above is how I feel (parent of DC at a selective private). GCSEs seem to be more about exam technique and volume of memorisation. The DC can do it, and do well, but I just don’t see the value in memorising the tick boxes for English lang or the precise phrasing of a top marks Biology answer.

It’s a real contrast to KS3 where they had space and time to explore tangents, and feels like going back to the repetitive Y6 grind towards SATs. If there was a way to make GCSEs better, I’d be keen to see it. Their school has a few school created courses in creative subjects, which seem much more engaging and enjoyable, though I can’t judge on the rigour.

I do think it needs to be a wider movement, and not just one school going it alone, though. For all the reasons set out in this thread.

Indiaorigin · 15/09/2023 08:01

I think part of this does miss choice. If you can’t afford private school and all the secondary schools in your area have the very strict behaviour policies you are stuck with that whether or not it’s a good fit.

clever children with motivated parents will do well every where
We may be looking at the wrong end. It’s is children that struggle to get 4 repeatedly that really need an alternative curriculum and exam.

We also need to look at ensuring that curriculum such as course work change doesn’t disadvantage bright children whose parents may not have the resources or time to help them do really well. the schools in a deprived area may not have the resource to make up the difference.

explainthistomeplease · 15/09/2023 08:52

I may have missed the answer to this question - but how will these new assessments be marked, and more importantly, moderated?

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