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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Cheating admission system

160 replies

Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 18:31

Prepared to take a battering here, but interested to know what others would think.

Two years ago I moved towns to try to be able to get a better standard of high school for my dd who is now in y 6. We don’t live in a part of the country where selection is a thing, although she’s bright and I think she’d pass 11+ given the opportunity. Private education is out of my reach financially.

I’m a Christian who has always attended ce church, even before I had dd. Dd is baptised. There is a brilliant ce state school in a small neighbouring town to where I live. I couldn’t afford to buy there. I researched this school’s admission policy and aside from the usual looked after children, medical needs and children of staff it went like this:

1 children living in the parishes v close to school (where I couldn’t afford to buy) with proof of church attendance

2 children living in a few named parishes slightly further from school with evidence of church attendance (I bought in one of these parishes)

3 children in the nearby parishes with no church attendance

4 children further away with no church attendance (I’m pretty far away given how oversubscribed this school is)

anyway I did a freedom of information request before buying my house to ask on the most recent cohort where the last admitted child came on the criteria and it was criteria 3, meaning me being criteria two would have got dd in that year. I’m aware things change year on year but it gave me the general picture.

Now it’s time to apply and the criteria for the next intake has been amended. It now goes

1 nearby children with church
2 nearby children without church
3 far away children with church
4 far away children no church

their admission booklet shows that this year only one child got in based on 3 far away with church so there’s now almost certainly no way I’d get her a place.

my partners mother owns and rents out a number of houses in the nearby names parishes. This presents an opportunity to rent from her at a very discounted rate (but not easily affordable either) to be living in the right place. If I rented one from her, I literally would move there albeit in the short term as I’d be terrified of getting caught lying but I’m not sure I’d get permission from my lender to let my house out so it may stand empty. I’ve no idea about renting houses out. I can just about take the financial hit of renting from parters mum but it would not be easy.

honestly, if you had the means to do this (and the motive- there is nowhere close to this school in standards near and no other option for a faith education for her) would you? Or am I scum of the earth for even thinking it.

I recognise the irony in someone looking for a Christian education being so devious btw

OP posts:
TeenDivided · 05/09/2023 19:54

Turning up to church for 12 months isn't cheating in the same way.
Admissions criteria have to be able to be judged, you can't judge belief, only the actions.

Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 19:54

Inyournightgarden · 05/09/2023 19:51

Surely if you can afford to do this you can afford private?

None of my possible ideas would cost as much as private. Plus there is a younger sibling to think off, so it’s putting two through private. I wish I could afford

OP posts:
PuttingDownRoots · 05/09/2023 19:56

Remember 2011/2012 were high birth years. Theres less pressure on spaces in the current Secondary admissions round, so you might get in from further away.

lto2019 · 05/09/2023 19:59

What is the second choice school like? I got my DS into my first choice church school with great results. He was miserable as sin - I moved him in y8 to a good school but one I had not considered . He thrived. Got great results and was happy. I wouldn't rule out the others unless they are terrible.

BerriesPineCones · 05/09/2023 20:02

You'd only get away with this if they did no checks. It seems the school have decided to let in any local child rather than religious families. Maybe they decided to do this as they felt people were faking religion to get in. Not applicable to you as you are religious

LucyMay33 · 05/09/2023 20:05

As an ex admissions officer, there are things we do to check, there are additional documents, it’s not worth it - we will find out (or the school) Faith schools are particularly good at catching those trying to play the system. There are things on the admissions system that will show your actual address and it’ll flag up in our checking. I understand you really want the place but fraudulently going about it isn’t right. You don’t know for certain that your daughter won’t get a place. Imagine cheating, being caught out and place withdraw to find out she would have actually got a place as it reached the criteria she should have been in if you had been honest? If you don’t get a place then appeal and go on the waiting list. How do you know everyone is going to accept? Places do come up and some people have gone down to round 4 of the what we call reconsideration round and then got a place at their preferred school.

Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:06

BerriesPineCones · 05/09/2023 20:02

You'd only get away with this if they did no checks. It seems the school have decided to let in any local child rather than religious families. Maybe they decided to do this as they felt people were faking religion to get in. Not applicable to you as you are religious

Edited

Yes i hadn’t stopped to think why they’d made the change. That might be it.

OP posts:
Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:07

PuttingDownRoots · 05/09/2023 19:56

Remember 2011/2012 were high birth years. Theres less pressure on spaces in the current Secondary admissions round, so you might get in from further away.

That makes me feel better! I handnt thought of that. I wonder what the birth rate was like for this cohort?

OP posts:
BerriesPineCones · 05/09/2023 20:10

Hopefully you'll get in under no 3. 🤞
I can see it must have felt like the rug being pulled from under you that you moved then they changed the criteria. Or if dc doesn't get in hopefully they'll be happy at the other school

FoodFann · 05/09/2023 20:11

Well, I guess being Christian and attending that all important church doesn’t buy you morals! No support from me OP, I’m disgusted our country discriminates against non-religious families. For you to be playing the system which is already unfairly in your favour, is astounding to me. Disgraceful.

ShawleyNot · 05/09/2023 20:12

I think you're fine OP. If you actually rent out the house near the school and move there, there is no way the school could prove you don't intend to move there permanently. If it's your address for tax purposes it's your address. If you're willing to actually move house albeit for a year or so then go for it.

Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:21

FoodFann · 05/09/2023 20:11

Well, I guess being Christian and attending that all important church doesn’t buy you morals! No support from me OP, I’m disgusted our country discriminates against non-religious families. For you to be playing the system which is already unfairly in your favour, is astounding to me. Disgraceful.

Genuinely curious, do you feel the same about people who go to church for a year to get into a school? Or is it because I’m leveraging financial privilege (albeit my family’s not my own). If I’d had an extra 100k two years ago and had bought near the school then would you think I’m immoral?

OP posts:
ChristianCheater · 05/09/2023 20:28

OP so are you actually going to move out of your family home and live in the rental and then either rent your old home out or sell it?

Is the rental empty at the moment?

Have you changed your mortgage to one where you can rent the property?

foolishone · 05/09/2023 20:30

@Anonymousposter17 not answering for the other poster but personally I am against faith schools and other selection criteria full stop. It only serves to worsen inequality.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 05/09/2023 20:31

Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:21

Genuinely curious, do you feel the same about people who go to church for a year to get into a school? Or is it because I’m leveraging financial privilege (albeit my family’s not my own). If I’d had an extra 100k two years ago and had bought near the school then would you think I’m immoral?

Show quote history

Theoretically (or theologically), attending Church for x period at least gives the religious organisation that is partially funding the school (as they still get stung for things like, oh, stumping up to replace roofs made of shit concrete when the LA has refused for years to consider it) an opportunity to influence the soul of the attendees.

But flexing financial advantage to benefit from an ethos that includes ahem honesty? People don't really tend to be keen on that
.

Talkwhilstyouwalk · 05/09/2023 20:33

I'd do it. Not dishonest because at time of applying you would be meeting the criteria.

Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:37

NeverDropYourMooncup · 05/09/2023 20:31

Theoretically (or theologically), attending Church for x period at least gives the religious organisation that is partially funding the school (as they still get stung for things like, oh, stumping up to replace roofs made of shit concrete when the LA has refused for years to consider it) an opportunity to influence the soul of the attendees.

But flexing financial advantage to benefit from an ethos that includes ahem honesty? People don't really tend to be keen on that
.

Show quote history

Ok point taken.

that said, everybody seems to agree that if I’d bought a house next door to the school two years ago when I last moved, I wouldn’t be immoral, even though I’d have been buying the house solely to get into the school. So it’s ok to buy a house to get into a school as long as you do it well in advance of the application. But if I were to go to the extreme of selling my home now, and renting near the school to get a place, that is immoral.

I mean, buying a house to get into a school is what I did in the first place. The rules just changed and my house is no longer located high enough up the pecking order.

OP posts:
Nonameoclue · 05/09/2023 20:40

I don't think buying a house & moving to get into a school is immoral (it's within the rules). I think renting for a while to get into a school (or pretending to) & then moving back to where you came from is immoral (& not within the rules).

ChristianCheater · 05/09/2023 20:41

I don't think buying a house & moving to get into a school is immoral (it's within the rules). I think renting for a while to get into a school (or pretending to) & then moving back to where you came from is immoral (& not within the rules)

I agree.

roarrfeckingroar · 05/09/2023 20:45

I would do it

Puffthemagicdragongoestobed · 05/09/2023 20:45

We moved close to a desirable secondary school when my son was in year 5. When we applied for secondary the council asked us for proof of sale of our previous property, to verify we had definitely moved out. This way they tried to stop people from taking short term rentals near schools, without ever intending to properly leave their family home.

Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:47

ChristianCheater · 05/09/2023 20:41

I don't think buying a house & moving to get into a school is immoral (it's within the rules). I think renting for a while to get into a school (or pretending to) & then moving back to where you came from is immoral (& not within the rules)

I agree.

fair enough and I’m sure you’re right and that it’s my frustration with the system that’s making me so fed up and considering extreme things to get her a place.

I wonder though, surely I’m not the only one who has felt this way. Most replies say I’m a disgrace for thinking it, so what are all the other mners doing? Putting up with substandard schools? Living in some marvellous town where all schools are great so it’s fine? Lucky enough to have bought in the right place well in advance of application time?

OP posts:
Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:48

Puffthemagicdragongoestobed · 05/09/2023 20:45

We moved close to a desirable secondary school when my son was in year 5. When we applied for secondary the council asked us for proof of sale of our previous property, to verify we had definitely moved out. This way they tried to stop people from taking short term rentals near schools, without ever intending to properly leave their family home.

Out of interest, did you buy near the desirable school?

OP posts:
Original poster
Anonymousposter17 · 05/09/2023 20:50

roarrfeckingroar · 05/09/2023 20:45

I would do it

I think more people would than would care to admit it, if the alternative schools were bad enough

OP posts:
roarrfeckingroar · 05/09/2023 20:51

I don't really understand why people think this is such an immoral thing to do.

House prices are higher near good schools. Ergo children from more affluent families are more likely to get a place. Is that right? Is it any more morally correct than someone jumping through massive hoops to help their child?