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Secondary education

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Original poster

4 a-levels and an EPQ?

69 replies

imip · 26/08/2023 12:26

Would schools even let this happen? Dd is autistic and v rigid about doing this. I think the 4 a-levels is ok or 3 a-levels and and EPQ, but she is determined! Would a sixth form allow this?

For reference she has had a lot of mental health crises, including SH, anorexia and suicide attempt. Has been an inpatient. Missed most of y10 completing her GCSEs in one year this year and is now moving to a different sixth form. She has seven 9s, two 8s and one 6. In y10 they allowed her to study from home and she sat one GCSE early and got a 9.

I really would have thought that no school would allow this. Does anyone have experience that it has been allowed?

OP posts:
Malbecfan · 26/08/2023 13:03

Yes. I lead the EPQ in my school and last year had a couple of students take 4 A levels plus EPQ. Both did amazingly; one was straight A stars, the other 4 A stars and an A (not his EPQ). It was a LOT of work and one them did have a wobble in January, but after a pep talk, he pulled it off. Both did FM as their 4th A level and as talented Mathematicians, this may have helped.

With your DD's health issues, my concern would be whether it was overwhelming for her. My lot did EPQ over 5 terms, so could spread the workload (but still left a lot to the last 2 months!) If you would rather PM me, I'm happy to help.

Aaarghthepancakes · 26/08/2023 13:09

I think it would be too much, unless one A level is Further Maths. An EPQ is supposed to be about 80 hours work - DC is STILL doing theirs at 200 hours (the subject matter requires this level of work unfortunately).

IsItThough · 26/08/2023 13:22

Some students at DS selective did.
But it depends whether this is the right thing for your DD really and what her longer term goals are.

Original poster
imip · 26/08/2023 14:57

No longer term goals. She is very bad at making decisions (a reason why I prefer a 4th a level over an EPQ. She is a very diligent student, I have no doubt she could theoretically do it. It’s just the potential cost to mental health and her strive for perfectionism. Equally, she is so rigid that it is impossible to change her thinking on this. I had hoped that everyone would respond with ‘no way, schools would never let this happen!”.

it’s not FM, she has to drop it this year because she just couldn’t catch up with everyone in one year, but no doubt if she hasn’t missed a year she would have sat it and she did get a 9 in maths. She will do it for an a-level.

Looks like I will have to start accepting this will happen and work around other strategies to support her. She did say she could always drop one.

OP posts:
Original poster
imip · 26/08/2023 14:58

I definitely think it would all be too much as I am the one holding her together at home!

OP posts:
lanthanum · 26/08/2023 15:23

One of our local sixth forms insists on EPQ, and also does not allow them to do Further Maths unless they do four A-levels. They have over 200 doing Further Maths (across the two years), so that's a lot of people doing four + EPQ.

Sorry if that's not the answer you wanted!

However I think fewer schools will allow four + EPQ if Further Maths isn't one.

It may work for her - she sounds able and a good self-starter, but I can see your concern, especially if she would find it difficult to take the step of dropping something partway through.

Does she know what she wants to do for the EPQ? If it's something she's passionate about then that helps. Some do something that is a complete contrast to A-levels - particularly if they make something. I know someone who made a period costume - obvious research involved and the sewing was a change from studying.

Malbecfan · 26/08/2023 15:27

When I am talking to my students about starting their EPQ, there are a couple of directions they can take. As @lanthanum says, some use it to showcase different skills than those in their A levels. Others use it to test out what they might want to study at uni. I have had people do Physics/Engineering type EPQs but apply for Medicine successfully as they realised as a result of doing the EPQ that it was not how they wanted to spend the next few years. Just be very careful that you don't double up on A level work. Dual accreditation is to be avoided at all costs.

Original poster
imip · 26/08/2023 15:50

Thank-you all. I am pretty resigned now to the fact that she will do it. The EPQ would be history based, she is not taking a history a-level, so should be ok. She is actually not sure what she wants to do in the future, so she has everything pretty well-spread out.

is this the sort of thing universities like to see? I just wonder whether there is any extra value in it?

OP posts:
Original poster
imip · 26/08/2023 15:51

I did actually suggest and art EPQ but she wants to do an art a level, which is again a whole lot more work and def not her strongest subject (impacted by having to complete all the work in one year instead of two.

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CatsOnTheChair · 26/08/2023 16:16

What are the A levels?
If art is one, I think 4 + EPQ is going to be a massive amount of work.

Back in the depths of time, I did 5 - bio, phys, Chem, maths &General studies. I did practically nothing for the last one, and there was masses of overlap between the others. I did fit in DoE gold, but didn't have masses of time outside of that lot.

If she is set on it all, I'd get her working on the EPQ straight away, and make a decision at half term on which to drop.

WordWeird · 26/08/2023 16:30

My kid has just got four A stars in her A Levels and an A star in her EPQ. She did FM A Level so I don’t think it’s seen as a full other A Level. Only one university offer took the EPQ into account. Maybe if she hadn’t got the A Level grades, the EPQ might have been considered.

It is do-able if the EPQ is started early and the supervisor is helpful.

Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 06:53

Well done to your young person @WordWeird !

I think. I am going to have to grit my teeth through this one and potentially have to give up work again to ensure she can manage as I agree that art will be too much. It’s sad that she has the potential and ability to do it all, but such poor CAMHS support during covid left her MH in tatters.

OP posts:
GrammarTeacher · 27/08/2023 07:35

Loads of mine do. Or at least are when they do the EPQ. Some keep 4 until their offers come in and make the decision then. I do teach in a selective school though.

gogomoto · 27/08/2023 07:51

If she's planning to do any portfolio based al levels (you mentioned art) then doing 4 plus an epq isn't feasible though starting 4 in lower sixth isn't a bad idea, then drop one based on what she's best at, there's a huge jump and no guarantees she's do as well (my asd dd got a*'s at GCSEs, but a levels weren't as good

Chasingsquirrels · 27/08/2023 08:04

at my kids sixth form they only allow 4 A levels where one is FM and EPQ is mandatory.

Panicmode1 · 27/08/2023 08:14

My eldest did 4 A levels and an EPQ and got A stars in them all - but as has been previously said, his fourth A level was FM and he's very academic and loved his subjects (now at Cambridge).

DD started with 4 A levels and an EPQ and dropped an A level as they were essay heavy and she struggled with the workload. She's not as academic as her brother, but did really well. However, only one uni gave her reduced grades due to her EPQ (which was really well run at her school - less so at her brother's!) so I think she may have done better to keep the 4th A and drop the EPQ, but the school didn't allow it anyway.

Oblomov23 · 27/08/2023 08:49

I wouldn't do this. Please try and discourage her. Competition is fierce for top unis. Which one does she want?
Why? What's the point? To put yourself under unnecessary pressure. 4, or 3+EPQ is fine. But not 4+EPQ.

W0tnow · 27/08/2023 08:52

Out school allows it and my daughter is halfway through A levels and is doing 4 a levels (sciences plus a language) and an EQP. It’s a lot of work but she is on track for A stars and maybe an A or B in the language.

Her school offers both A levels and the IB. She tells me that the IB students are under more pressure than she is, work wise.

That said, it’s not for everyone.

Oblomov23 · 27/08/2023 08:52

I'm surprised OP is so passive and resigned to this.... oh, I'll just give up work and help and support her when her MH inevitably will hit rock bottom. Err no. Tell her this is not recommended, right from the start!

GOODCAT · 27/08/2023 09:01

In terms of her rigidity of thinking can you say to her that it is important to have balance and devise her some extra curricular stuff that she needs to do instead of the extra A level.

She could do DofE, voluntary work, get a sports qualification or a musical one or make something or have a part time job. Anything to get her focused on something that requires her to think more flexibly.

WordWeird · 27/08/2023 09:06

I think four A Levels including Art is too much even without an EPQ. Art seems to take an infinite amount of time.

I have to say though, if you are organised, I am not sure an EPQ takes a huge amount of time. If you work solidly and efficiently and do a few days in the holidays, it can be done fairly quickly. The repeated tweaking after feedback is a hassle but not too onerous. Both my kids got A stars in their EPQs and it did not take up too much of their lives. They chose stuff they enjoyed and were interested in, which helped.

WordWeird · 27/08/2023 09:09

imip · 27/08/2023 06:53

Well done to your young person @WordWeird !

I think. I am going to have to grit my teeth through this one and potentially have to give up work again to ensure she can manage as I agree that art will be too much. It’s sad that she has the potential and ability to do it all, but such poor CAMHS support during covid left her MH in tatters.

Thank you.

Can school not advise? Am I misreading or is she doing Art A Level in one year and not two? Surely that’s almost impossible on top of three other A Levels?

Original poster
imip · 27/08/2023 10:40

Oblomov23 · 27/08/2023 08:52

I'm surprised OP is so passive and resigned to this.... oh, I'll just give up work and help and support her when her MH inevitably will hit rock bottom. Err no. Tell her this is not recommended, right from the start!

She is very cognitively rigid, I have had to give up work in the past because social cAre and CAMHS support is just not there. Yes, I fear her MH will slide, I kept her off school a year and fought against section while she was a voluntary inpatient, but I know it is better to ensure support for her than stand strongly against her. She did all her GCSEs in one year this year, but she did end up giving up FM before Christmas - I had said she just needed to. She almost had to experience the stress to then give it up.

i think the intention will be to give up an a-level, hopefully art.

I agree that an EPQ can be done more efficiently, she does work like that.

we won’t speak with school now until they start back. We now have CAMHS support, so I think we will work with her CAMHS coordinator also.

I have other autistic children on very low school attendance. The reality is that I will probably struggle to work and meet all their needs.

really grateful for all your feedback. I come from abroad, so the English system is a bit of a mystery to me (although I work in it!).

OP posts:
rogueone · 27/08/2023 12:43

My DS will be doing 4 A levels and the EPQ. His school expect all DC to do it

Tulipvase · 27/08/2023 12:47

My daughter is doing 3 A levels, as AS in Maths ( But over 2 years, can’t think of the proper name) and an EPQ. She is thinking of not doing the EPQ as it’s not in her favoured subject.

Schools seem to vary a lot. She also did 11 GCSES, the only way you don’t at her school is if they allow you to do double science but that’s not often. I’ve seen quite a lot of schools doing less.