Giving a fraudulent address for secondary school place

[Claireeo]

Hi, I just want to hear others experiences or thoughts on this please.
My daughter hasn’t been given her 1st choice school. She is 1st on the waiting list. One of the parents has given a false address to be in catchment. I know she has lied as we followed her home on the school run several times. She’s lives further than us to 1st choice school.I have also done a land registry check on the house and it’s still in her name. She has said she split up with her husband and has now moved back all in the space of 6 months. If she has moved back should that address be used? Is it something that should be reported? Also another thing-pan is 270 and they also let some in on appeal. They have told me that the student number is currently 270 but shouldn’t it have gone up due to successful appeals? Any help is appreciated. Many thanks

It really isn't as complicated as you make out.

There are, in most areas, clear rules about owning 2 places / owning 1 and renting 1, and what is and isn't allowable.

Teen because you selected the simplest case. What if then don't let second house or rent it?

I personally know the person who owns a house and company pays for their rented place near work. His family lives over weekend in the house Mon- Fr in rented accomodation. I doubt they will apply for school where they own the house once the kids go to school.

There are complicated scenarios, seriously

And the LA / rules can decide what is fair.

The issue is usually having access to 2 places of residence near to each other so you use one address to get in and then go to school from the other.

If a company pays for a place near work, presumably that is because the family home isn't near enough to live in and get to work. They wouldn't do it i there was only a short time difference between the 2.

If someone has 2 places one in Portsmouth and one in Reading it doesn't matter as there's no way you would commute from Portsmouth to Reading for school.

In my area they check who pays the council tax on the property.

So if you own or rent and own two properties within a few miles of each other and pay council tax on both, and don't get rid of the second property immediately the child goes to school there is nothing to prove.

The people who get caught come up with elaborate plans where they use another relatives house or just some random house.

Saying that I do know a family who moved down the road to the grandmother's house once their child got into the school they wanted to. However the grandmother's house was nearer the school...

The LA doesn't have to prove it though. It's not a court where beyond reasonable doubt is required. They'll simply use what they consider to be the genuine address, and it would be up to the applicant to appeal and explain the circumstances. And if the appeal panel didn't believe them either then tough, no space will be offered.

Owning and renting a property with a few miles of each other is exactly the sort of situation that will be flagged as a fraudulent application.
The property you own will be assumed to be your actual address.

Well if she has good grounds I haven't said she shouldn't do it. If she's doing it because she followed them after school then I don't think she should, she's said she didn't follow them to their house, just that they went further than her which proves nothing. If it is just playground gossip I don't think she should. If she is certain of her facts she should.

What about if there is one house of mother and second house of father within close proximity with shared equally custody?

Or what about owning two houses within few miles, one closer one further, not renting it out to anybody?

Those are tricky cases and can be relied only on what is declared by a parent

I think it is malicious and ill informed reporting that people don't agree with.

Those are tricky cases and can be relied only on what is declared by a parent
No, they don't have to rely on what is declared by a parent at all; the admissions team are allowed to make certain assumptions. It's for the parent to disprove, not the school to prove.

Depends.

People do rent larger properties than the property they own. (Mind you the people I know who did that for a few years privately educate their kids.)

Point is there are scenarios that make sense in rl but on paper initially look odd.

I am sorry but I don't understand. Are you saying that in a scenario where parents have split custody and a child lives 3.5 days with mum and 3.5 days with the dad it is the admission team makes assumption that they live with mum even if the reality is different and it is shared custody?
Sorry but as there is dozillions of arrangements like that LA would be endlessly challenged on that and letters to MP written.

In the described scenario parents have right to apply from one of the selected by them houses. And I know case exactly like that ( not me)

I read something on an 11 plus forum where the LA turned up on someone's doorstep and said " we're here to help you decide where you really live "

Omg that is funny. Especially that they could respond: we are just visiting.

Least the house existed -
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12111035/Mother-pretended-living-elderly-couples-home-son-London-school.html

I think it is malicious and ill informed reporting that people don't agree with
The problem is that on these threads that almost anything is considered malicious. There's an awful lot of telling people to mind their own business, which only really benefits people who aren't being honest.

If someone has a reason to believe someone has made a fraudulent application, they can mention it.

If a family who've been honest get awarded a place over someone who has tried to deceive their way to a place then that's a good thing in my opinion.

Cheating is bad,mentioning that fraud may have taken place still acceptable... but being awarded for grassing reminds me communist methods in a totalitarnian country. Lol toxic really

I am sorry but I don't understand. Are you saying that in a scenario where parents have split custody and a child lives 3.5 days with mum and 3.5 days with the dad it is the admission team makes assumption that they live with mum even if the reality is different and it is shared custody?

In those circumstances it generally goes to where the child spends school nights. However where there is genuine shared care, eg alternate weeks, most LAs publish how they would determine the address which is to be used. Some do indeed say that parents can choose in certain situations.

But again it is up to the parents to prove they used the correct address and appeal if necessary. And yes, it can happen as you describe and plenty of MP's postboxes are full of constituent complaints about school admissions.

'Grassing' makes you sound like a teenager btw.... reporting potential fraud is not grassing. If you think it is, I'd suggest your view is at odds with most other people's.

Yeah, 51 years old teenager. Please save me nonsense and read my post 3 times before you respond. You clearly have not read it correctly as if you were a teenager.

@Claireeo you need to do the right thing by your own child, not someone else’s child.

You have reasonable grounds to suspect that a fraudulent application may have been made. You don’t have to know for sure that it was, and not having absolute proof would not make your report malicious.

Tell the LA what you do know or suspect and leave it to them.

If the other child has legitimate reasons which give her preferred priority over your child nothing will happen.

If the family was genuinely living at the other address when the application was made, nothing will happen.

If the mother was gaming the system, the child will almost certainly lose the place but it was a place which should never have been offered to them in the first place and any distress to the child or the mother will be 100% down to the mother’s choice to make a fraudulent application and not for you to berate yourself about.

You can only do the right thing by you and your own child. If someone else has done the wrong thing, then any stress an investigation causes is on them. If they haven’t done the wrong thing, they have nothing to fear about the LA looking into the circumstances of their application and will be able to provide the corroborative evidence required.

Your response is nearly as garbled as your initial post, @TheShorestAnswerIsDoing
Arf at you instructing people to read it three times as though it's profundity needs proper appreciation!

Cheating is bad,mentioning that fraud may have taken place still acceptable... but being awarded for grassing reminds me communist methods in a totalitarnian country. Lol toxic really

Grassing?

Why would anyone object to wanting children to be fairly allocated schools based on public admissions policies?

School place fraud is not victimless. When a family fraudulently gain a place they are ensuring a family with an honest application do not get a place.

Katrinawaves I agree with you. It can be raised, the LA can do their job, and if the place has been rightly awarded then nothing will happen. If it's been awarded due to fraud then the correct family can be given the place.

Harrietjet
On the topic of garbled I will make it easy for you by splitting my words:

Cheating is bad,

does the author of that words says it is ok to cheat? Or does she condemn it?
Garbled message? - no

mentioning that fraud may have taken place still acceptable...

Is the author agreeing with reporting? - yes Is this part garbled- no

but being awarded for grassing reminds me communist methods in a totalitarnian country. Lol toxic really

Does the author supports the idea of giving awards to the informers- no. Is this garbled- no.

Now, where in the above I wrote that I support cheating or I recommend not informing at all?
I am against AWARDING informers.

I am 51 years old who lived all childhood in youth in communist country where awarding informers was a common practice. It led to fear, it led to horrible relations between people. And btw. English is not my first language. How many languages do you speak fluently?!
Shame that I had to split my message and shame on titchy calling me a teenager.

You also not read what I written carefully enough. I am saying that giving Awards for being an informer is appaling and toxic practice and I do say that mentioning fraud is acceptable.