Transfer from private to state at 11+

[curioscurio]

I don't want to incite one of those endless threads on privilege of public schools and immorality of private education. Both me and my husband are state educated and got our higher degrees entirely on scholarships. Both are foreigners, so British education system with (as it seems from outside) random assignment of places in state schools/oversubscription criteria/appeals/catchment areas seems too complicated a game to master for the outsiders. So, as the quality of education of our DD is of a paramount importance for us, we opted, at the cost of our living standards, for private eduction route until 11+ and grammar school after.

My DD is academic, sociable, empathic, very sensitive, with strong feelings on social justice and ecology. She can stay at her (selective) private London school until university and I am quite confident that the quality of her education will be good there. However, I am having issues with her growing in an orangery and her peer group not being diverse enough. Hence (plus the fact that the school fees are quite a burden for our finances) our plan is to try a grammar school at 11+ (we are in the catchment of HBS).

However, after lurking on mumsnet for a while I realised that this is not as simple as I thought and there seems to be an antipathy between people choosing private and state options. Thus, I became worried that my DD will be labelled "posh" (which she isn't, but her accent, unfortunately, is) and shunned by other children if moved to state education system.

Did anybody have an experience of such a move? How did your DC find the experience? Is there something that I am missing and should take into account when planning this move? Or am I just overcomplicating things?

My relative went from private primary to HBS and had no issues. Her friendship group was ethnically diverse but solidly middle class.

First of all, I want to thank everybody for dispelling my fears on the attitude of pupils in a grammar school. It really helped. Thank you.

Second, I want to thank everybody for correcting my belief that grammars have larger spectrum of backgrounds than private. It was actually an eye opener for me. I didn't have experience with British education below MSc level, so I based my assumptions on public information (rather a myth, as it turned out) and my experience in my country of the a school similar to grammar (which was, indeed had people of different socioeconomic backgrounds). It is important for me, so I will have questions to HBS when my DD will be applying. Side note: I find it very bizarre that while the UK universities are working on increasing diversity the grammar schools do not have the same pressure, hopefully things will change in the future.

I also appreciate the warnings on difficulty of getting to HBS. I know it is difficult, and we will prepare our DD for the tests we don't plan to rely on her school for that as they indeed don't prepare for 11+. If she doesn't get in, we will bite the bullet and simply work more to pay for her current school not ideal, but doable.

PS. And thank you, neverknowinglyunreasonable, for suggesting an entertainment for an evening: I am always curious about British culture that I missed due to being a foreigner -- I will check that movie out.

Hi OP

I’m the opposite as I went from 2 very rough state junior schools to private school.

However, my DH went from a private junior school to a grammar school and had no problems, he enjoyed it and had lots of friends. However, he has mentioned the lack of diversity at the grammar school.

A lot depends on what you mean by "diversity". HBS is, based partly on local demographics, an extreme example of the tendency for super-selectives to be well on their way to being dominated by Asian/Indian kids - the FOI request below shows it's about 75% Asian on average across years 7-11. In socio-economic terms it's much less diverse, about 1 child per class on average is on free school meals, which is very low.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/pupil_diversity_3#incoming-1956757

OP

There is also a difference between areas with an occasional grammar school like Barnet and ones where it is in “the system” like Kent.

HBS gives priority to Pupil Premium girls who meet their academic standard, but it’s still a high academic standard.

There is certainly diversity in the grammar schools near me (St Olaves, Newstead Woods, Chislehurst and Sidcup, Bexley, BETHS to name a few), and they take bright pupils from outside their catchment areas. There is more diversity than at a private school though privates vary.

I wish your daughter every success, op.

OP grammar schools have had pressure in recent years. They now have to have a certain amount of kids on pupil premium in their acceptance. This is small numbers though and still, it's likely to be poor kids that have very educated parents with high standards that know the system. Especially in London where there's so few grammars.
Pupil premium is really not a great indicator though as you can be on it for a long time after not being eligible for free school meals.

@puffyisgood HBS is one of the least ethnic diverse super selective school in London, second to QE boys I believe.

@curioscurio

"the UK universities are working on increasing diversity the grammar schools do not have the same pressure, hopefully things will change in the future"

They do in the past 20 years, most of the selective grammar schools in this country had been converted to non academic selective state or private school and that is why you end up situation like today.

The pupil premium students need to be standout as the top 300 out of 3000 applicants to get in.

Given the exam format and preparation levels I have seen other parents/kids did for this school it is really to their disadvantage.

Part of British cultural mythology is the barefoot ploughboy and the kitchen maid's daughter trotting off the grammar school in uniform provided by the kindly village vicar and rising to become Prime Minister.

The reality is they are another layer of privilege granted to already privileged children.

Yup.

Dd is at state but her friends are from a variety of schools mostly private the teens are utterly interchangeable.

Really insightful and a good film showing their progression after GCSE .

Derry Girls is another thoughtful documentary focussing on girls at grammar school facing down adversity.

Another myth is that Pupil Premium children are somehow given an advantage. They aren't. They just get a place if they get the scores. Which is a pretty safe thing to offer because it doesn't happen very often.

Back to OP's original question:

If want to have a more social justice and diverse peer group environment , London superselective grammar is probably not the place. Non selective state secondary probably is the destination.

If want to save money but still want an education environment where students are prefiltered at high attainment level, superselective grammars fit in this bracket.

well that did happen a bit in the old days, when there were sufficient places for around a quarter of all kids to attend grammar schools; the test was a mix of reasoning and the year five syllabus; and the mass tutoring industry was but a twinkle in Henry Kumon's eye. and that was of course in the old days of the tripartite system, O levels and CSE's, etc etc. these days the few remaining grammars are, as you suggest, en exercise in segregation for segregation's sake, primarily on grounds of parental means and/or effort, rather than the raw intellectual horsepower of the kids involved.

Not quite the same, but I moved from private to state at 16. I was extremely miserable in my private school, but I thoroughly enjoyed my time at the state sixth form. I'm sure I was labelled the posh girl now and again (tbh I still am - I'm 35 and someone asked me the other day what secondary school I went to!) but I met firm friends there. My mum still says that it was the best decision we made.

I can't speak for Hampstead , but in equivalent areas in SW London, your best bet for social diversity combined with high academic standards is a non-selective state comprehensive that sets early and extensively. Because there are so few grammars, many very able students find themselves in the top sets at a non-selective school.

My grammar school was not diverse whatsoever if that's a concern you might want to research this. If you're looking for a non fee paying quasi private school grammar fits the bill! I'd say over 75% of my year 20 years ago went to a private school . Wonder what it's like now.

A part of the current problem is also the fact many parents who would historically have been able to afford private, now can't. They go for grammars instead. OP is a great example of this.

@BlackberrySky most of the students in HBS do not live in Hampstead. The number of students live in the very local HBS area (i.e nw11 nw3 n2 or n6) probably will be less than 10% in total.

My thoughts, exactly. Thank you for succinct summary.

The problem with non-selective state secondary (apart from the fact that my non-selective state school was a hell on Earth and, although I managed to escape to good and nurturing grammar, I still have strong visceral reaction just thinking about it) is that it is very difficult to find (and distinguish) the ones that have good quality of teaching and support.

As far as I can see, Ofsted ratings is more noise than information (e.g. the key information of level of children incoming vs results is carefully hidden under wraps), so the real information is exchanged by local parents and I, as a foreigner, am not a part of this information exchange.

Honestly, OP? There's a good chance that, in the London state system, everyone only really has a chance of getting into their closest school, rather than there being a secret grapevine for local parents.