Transfer from private to state at 11+

[curioscurio]

I don't want to incite one of those endless threads on privilege of public schools and immorality of private education. Both me and my husband are state educated and got our higher degrees entirely on scholarships. Both are foreigners, so British education system with (as it seems from outside) random assignment of places in state schools/oversubscription criteria/appeals/catchment areas seems too complicated a game to master for the outsiders. So, as the quality of education of our DD is of a paramount importance for us, we opted, at the cost of our living standards, for private eduction route until 11+ and grammar school after.

My DD is academic, sociable, empathic, very sensitive, with strong feelings on social justice and ecology. She can stay at her (selective) private London school until university and I am quite confident that the quality of her education will be good there. However, I am having issues with her growing in an orangery and her peer group not being diverse enough. Hence (plus the fact that the school fees are quite a burden for our finances) our plan is to try a grammar school at 11+ (we are in the catchment of HBS).

However, after lurking on mumsnet for a while I realised that this is not as simple as I thought and there seems to be an antipathy between people choosing private and state options. Thus, I became worried that my DD will be labelled "posh" (which she isn't, but her accent, unfortunately, is) and shunned by other children if moved to state education system.

Did anybody have an experience of such a move? How did your DC find the experience? Is there something that I am missing and should take into account when planning this move? Or am I just overcomplicating things?

This is very interesting. Are you living in North London (this is our habitat)?

We are not London so the demographic will be different but my DD is at a non selective community college as we have no grammars. .if we did she would most likely have got a place. Most kids don't know or care where their peers went to primary school. She sounds posh (ish) and is very bright but very quiet. She is thriving in a large diverse school. I think it is good for her to see a cross section of society and some of the behaviours are truly eye opening but don't appear to be impeding her learning and she is flying academically. Probably more so than if she was surrounded purely by very high achieving children as she may have crumbled under the pressure.

I have good reasons to hope she will be of that calibre at 11: she passed her 7+ with very good offers (SHHS, Highgate and CLJS). Obviously, we will also work on it together and consider other options (music, as far as I understand, is one).

However, I didn't realise that HBS is less diverse than private: it is quite a surprise for me. I assumed there will be more broad socioeconomic spectrum in a grammar school (in the country I am from it is) than in private. I guess I am naive.

I don't get a joke. What is the issue with the documentary (I was actually considering watching it)?

This is another issue I worry about. At the moment her school is very good in managing conflicts between children and as a result she didn't develop any ability to stand for herself. She is just too gentle and kind.

I am not sure that a grammar school teachers will have so much time to delve in the particulars of every conflict. I just hope that by 11 she will be a bit tougher than now.

Can’t work out if you’re being serious or not! OP, you should definitely watch this “documentary”.

People are pulling your leg op. It's a very funny show. Definitely not a documentary. You might not want to watch it with your daughter. Quite crude and a lot of jokes that wouldn't be allowed now. A British classic though. Its a very exaggerated version of a private school boy going to a pretty rough comprehensive. It's hilarious.

As for socioeconomic diversity, that's not really a thing in grammar schools. Especially ones like HBS. HBS is pretty mono cultural. Mostly Asian and white girls. Very few will be below what most people deem middle class. State primary schools don't teach what's on the test. Well off parents tutor for years and raise the standards far beyond what most 'poor' kids can get. Not because those poor kids aren't smart, but because they can't afford the tutor or the books. Some parents don't even know how to apply or feel their child won't fit in, so don't. London private schools are often more diverse tbh as the good ones have healthy bursaries. Esp ones like CLSG.

Sorry, I realised I misspoke. I don't know anything about grammar schools out of London. There are some areas of the country where grammar schools are the norm eg Kent. There will likely be far more diversity in those as some of them are easier to get to and there are just more of them.
Unfortunately the London ones, aren't like that at all. They're 'super selective' and very much not diverse, esp in terms of socioeconomic backgrounds.

My daughter goes to a non London grammar school. A number of the girls in her form went to private primary school and are quite posh. In fact, I would say “non posh” is the exception rather than the rule tbh.

There will be plenty of prep school kids at HBS. I wouldn't worry. And the kids who went to state primaries won't burn her at the stake either! She'll be fine.

I suggest you (and DD) try to get the offer from HBS before considering other things. It is a bit late if you only start prepare from now for Sept exam.

Based on the number it is one of the toughest competition in 11+ of this country. From my observation the girls from private primary has no advantage to a lot of state school kids (and parents) specificly targeting this school from earlier years.

And HBS is very mono culture and not diverse at all, in terms of ehticuty and social diversity.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/799873/response/1956757/attach/2/FOI%20G%20Singh.xlsx?cookie_passthrough=1

You need to be in the top 10% in the first round even within 3 miles. There are nearly 3000 girls sit in the first round. It requires some luck on the exam day.

Yup. I'd go as far as saying it's tougher than St Paul's girls.

"I know that admissions are tough, but we are in 3 mile radius from it and she got without any tutoring to SHHS, Highgate and CLJS, so, I think, with some help, she will stand a decent chance."

Comprared to the 7+ exam competitions you had with above schools, 11+ hbs is at a completely different level.

Based our experience last year SPGS is easier.

These two schools test format are very different so it attracts different girls with quite different qualities. We knew some girls get into one but not the other last year, and of course some get in both.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4804140-could-any-child-get-into-sw-london-grammars-with-tutoring?reply=126214300&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I did think this too, but didn't want to be a Debby downer. OP, it is one of the hardest schools in the country to get into. It's not your average grammar. Think about whether that's the environment you'd like your DD in too.
I don't know if you're in the catchment of Latymer in N9, but that's a popular grammar and a lot more balanced. Still tough to get into.

Latymer (Coed grammar) is relatively more diverse and easier than HBS to get in, but still competition is high.

OP DD is from a through private school not a prep so the school won't prepare 11+ and don't underestimate the efforts required to get to top London selective for 11+.

OP, it really is a complete myth that grammar schools are full of “rough but bright kids.” They are full of middle class kids who have been heavily tutored or gone to prep schools. I know a couple of lower-income families who got their kids into grammar school, but both were “culturally middle class” single mothers who read with their kids nightly and took them to museums etc. Your DD will be fine if she gets a place (but isn’t HBS a super-selective grammar that only accepts a small % of applicants? The odds are against it).

user477: " ...read with their kids nightly and took them to museums etc". Don't most parents do that? We certainly did and lively discussion. We were not at all well off, nor did mine have extra tuition (they would have rebelled against that had it been suggested but it wasn't), we merely provided a happy and nurturing environment without too much pressure.

Op, my neighbours' children all went to grammar school from primaries and were not tutored. None are 'posh' but are articulate. The grammars in Bromley and Bexley are very good too despite some being 'selective'. It's worth her having a go if your daughter has aptitude and it sounds as though she does; however look at more than one school and let her have a say. She will have an idea if a school will suit her, it's important for her to be happy. Good luck.

Sure, that’s precisely my point. The mothers in question did not have a lot of resources, but did a lot of things to help their children succeed.

You’d be amazed how many parents rarely read to their kids, have no limits on screen time, don’t take their children to anywhere stimulating or educational etc. If the OP sends their kids to the grammar school, it won’t be full of those kinds of kids. The vast majority of families will be comfortably off, and the few that are not comfortably off will probably be “culturally middle class” ones, like the single mother families I just mentioned. So, as one poster said, “from one orangerie to another one,” basically.

If the OP wants to send their kid to what is essentially a kind of free private school, by all means try and get them into HBS etc. If the aim is to expose their child to a wider variety of people, they should use a normal state school.

I think you are worrying unnecessarily.

If she goes to grammar school there will be plenty of children just like her. She may get the occasional 'posh' comment but that's not important and if she's had 7 years private schooling, she should have the confidence to stare them down.

I went to grammar school 50 years ago. I still get a 'posh' comment occasionally. Who cares? I also get comments from colleagues from overseas about how my English is very clear & easy to understand, my diction is good, and my written English is how I earn my living.

Honestly, she'll be fine. Don't worry about it.

Private schools and grammar schools have very similar demographics. Anyone who doesn't know this has bought the grammar school myth.

I'm in an area near a grammar county (not London). It's extremely common for a certain bracket of parents (the one I think OP fits into) to send their children to private prep with the main aim of preparing for grammar school (they also generally tutor on top). A colleague recently noted that the make up of the grammar school was actually "more posh" than the private prep her DC had been to.

I'd also like to point out to OP that I suspect the state system of just putting down a list of schools in order of preference is somewhat less complicated than applying to multiple selective private schools (and HBS) all of whom have their own admissions procedures. So if that is genuinely putting her off applying to a more wide range of state schools, I'd like to reassure her that the application process is really straightforward.

about 1 in 5 HBS kids went to a private primary, ie although not the norm it's far from uncommon.

source: comprehensivefuture.org.uk/interactive-map-of-grammar-schools/

DS went to a SS grammar school at least 25% had gone to a private prep school. Very common route round here ( Kent). Also a significant number of pupils whose parents were not educated in the UK. She will be with lots of children with very similar backgrounds (which is a good and bad thing) but she won't stick out in anyway.