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Secondary education

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Original poster

School has a very strong case

163 replies

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 16:10

As the title says… we have just received the school case against anymore pupils being admitted and it appears they have a strong case. Any tips or ideas of arguments to put forward to weaken their argument not to admit further…

to be honest, i appreciate the argument they have but I’m not asking them to admit anymore than one child so to me it’s hard to read it as being stronger than my argument for my child.

they were originally admitting 252 and have increased pan to 280. They say that they have 10 forms of 28 students and all classrooms are at full capacity, SEN areas and provisions are stretched and financially they are stretched etc etc.

can I argue that the receive extra funding for SEN pupils and that this should cover those children and the one 2 one teaching that is required?? I don’t know what else I can argue as I’m more conscious of the impact the my child if they were not to be admitted. They also argue about the narrow road that the school is on and that more people coming would add to health and safety, but my child would be walking so can I add that in to my speech, I don’t know.. feel like I’m clutching at straws!

any ideas please please please?

OP posts:
Qilin · 02/05/2023 19:49

but I am aware that from my daughters year alone there are at least 4 kids who will be attending independent schools that are definitely not going to require a place but those schools have not informed the local authority yet

It is the parents of those children who need to decline their children's places - if they actually did apply and get offered a place - not the schools.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 19:50

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 19:31

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge one of my DD healthcare providers have said they will attend the appeal with me. Do you think the panel will put questions to them and will they give her a chance to offer her opinion

They should allow her to offer her opinion. If they don't, you may be able to complain that you were prevented from putting your case properly if you lose the appeal. If she does offer her opinion, I would expect her to be questioned.

prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 20:08

JM231 · 02/05/2023 19:45

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge slight diversion but to most of us new to this we would probably see this as a strong case. It’s reasurring that it is not but what if so, what would make it a strong case?

A case that says more than this! If, for example, it included the full net capacity calculation (which gives both maximum and minimum figures) and showed that they were well over the maximum capacity, that would be a strong case. They need to prove to the panel that they really are so full that they really couldn't possibly handle another pupil under any circumstances. Such cases are rare.

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 20:17

I looked at my old school. The Capacity is 1189. However their y7 admission number is 174. So 6x29x5 equals 870. The number on roll is 1311. 438 are in the 6th form. This leaves 873 so there are roughly 3 DC extra above PAN.

They have a PAN of 40 for the 6th form but there seems room to squeeze a few more in, probably via appeal at both y7-11 and 6th form. So try snd look at their stats for your preferred school. The Gov web site or an ofsted report can give clues. Is there any evidence they go over pan?

CheeseMunchies · 02/05/2023 20:18

OP...I would ask for this thread to be removed or at least the pictures you attached to be removed. You have left the school name in them.

Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 20:28

I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. You need to prove that the specific needs of your child can only be met at this school or that the disadvantage they would face in being refused a place is sufficient to merit the school being forced to take an extra child they’re saying they don’t have room for.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:50

Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 19:29

You can bring it up but I think you'd still have to prove why your child deserves to take one of those places if the school is dictated by the LEA to keep them free.

Show quote history

thats not the stance I’m coming from… I’m trying to show that they have the ability to go over PAN if they can save spaces for hard to place pupils who will likely also be using the extra pastoral support that they are claiming is under extreme strain. So I’m trying to weaken the argument that they are so full that they can’t take possibly take anymore. I’m not trying to say that my child should take one of those particular spaces as If we won the appeal they would still save those spaces for those pupils even if they go over pan

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:53

Sirzy · 02/05/2023 19:01

But did you have exceptional circumstances and did you provide evidence of that?

you seem to be avoiding answering what makes this school unique in the area for being able to meet her needs which is the crux of your argument

I’m not avoiding the question, I’ve posted it on MN many of times, I’m not asking for opinions on my circumstances so I haven’t repeated myself in writing out our argument for the 100th time as it’s pretty long!!!

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:57

TeenDivided · 02/05/2023 19:26

No it isn't!
The OP didn't ask for advice on her case for admitting her child. She asked about how to challenge the school's case, which is a standard part of an appeal.

Show quote history

Thank you very much! I haven’t gone into detail our circumstances because I have said it multiple times on here and it’s extremely long to keep writing out every time I ask for any advice!

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:58

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 02/05/2023 19:20

The school does sound badly designed from what they say, but I'm not sure there's much of an argument to be made about this. The school building is what it is, and it can't easily be changed. Changing science labs (however badly designed) usually isn't easy, so regardless of whether making them so small was a good decision, I'm not sure there's much mileage there. They also mention DT rooms etc, which again can be difficult to change.

It does sound like they run some classes above 28, because they mention smaller bottom sets- they contradict themselves a bit on this, I think, so it would be worth asking for clarity what is their largest current class size and how is this accommodated.

To me, their EAL and SEN percentages look quite high, but is the blacked out row averages for your LA? In which case they are still lower than average for the LA?

Have they ever gone over PAN- again the report suggests they have for ECHP/LAC students? Do you know the actual numbers of student in each year group, not just the PAN?

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The Blacked out bit is the city we live in so yes that our LA, so below average. According to the report they have 280 in all years. Last year one appeal was won yet that year still has 280.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:04

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 20:17

I looked at my old school. The Capacity is 1189. However their y7 admission number is 174. So 6x29x5 equals 870. The number on roll is 1311. 438 are in the 6th form. This leaves 873 so there are roughly 3 DC extra above PAN.

They have a PAN of 40 for the 6th form but there seems room to squeeze a few more in, probably via appeal at both y7-11 and 6th form. So try snd look at their stats for your preferred school. The Gov web site or an ofsted report can give clues. Is there any evidence they go over pan?

I have some info from 2022 that says the capacity is 1592 and the amount of pupils they have is 1661.

OP posts:
Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 21:07

Hye000 · 02/05/2023 20:50

thats not the stance I’m coming from… I’m trying to show that they have the ability to go over PAN if they can save spaces for hard to place pupils who will likely also be using the extra pastoral support that they are claiming is under extreme strain. So I’m trying to weaken the argument that they are so full that they can’t take possibly take anymore. I’m not trying to say that my child should take one of those particular spaces as If we won the appeal they would still save those spaces for those pupils even if they go over pan

Show quote history

Is that the right stance though? You might not be the only family appealing, so your grounds surely need to be specific to the needs of your child rather than a generalised argument? What if do you prove your point about PAN but the place then goes to another child appealing because they've listed specific needs?

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:07

CheeseMunchies · 02/05/2023 20:18

OP...I would ask for this thread to be removed or at least the pictures you attached to be removed. You have left the school name in them.

I have reported the pictures, I removed the city and most of the names but figured that there are multiple schools with the same name so it wouldn’t matter too much, I guess not.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 21:09

You need to break down where the additional pupils are. My old school has raised PAN above capacity. Ask the more knowledgable people if this is worth pursuing. Are they already prejudicing the education of Dc by having an pan larger than capacity anyway? @PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:09

Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 20:28

I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. You need to prove that the specific needs of your child can only be met at this school or that the disadvantage they would face in being refused a place is sufficient to merit the school being forced to take an extra child they’re saying they don’t have room for.

I have done this in my written appeal but I’m asking for advice on the schools case so I am able to probe them during the hearing in order to weaken their argument, in the hope of strengthening my own. You are making an unnecessary assumption

OP posts:
Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:12

Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 21:07

Is that the right stance though? You might not be the only family appealing, so your grounds surely need to be specific to the needs of your child rather than a generalised argument? What if do you prove your point about PAN but the place then goes to another child appealing because they've listed specific needs?

Show quote history

I have done all that argument in my written appeal, I am trying to find other things to weaken the schools case which will strengthen my own. If it’s a balance of scales, the weaker I make their argument the stronger my daughters will be, I have said everything about my daughters case that I can say in the initial written appeal, I’m trying to find other things

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 02/05/2023 21:21

Inkpotlover · 02/05/2023 21:07

Is that the right stance though? You might not be the only family appealing, so your grounds surely need to be specific to the needs of your child rather than a generalised argument? What if do you prove your point about PAN but the place then goes to another child appealing because they've listed specific needs?

Show quote history

OP needs to be doing both things - weakening the school's case to refuse admission (which is what this thread is about) and putting a strong case for her child to be admitted (which she has discussed on another thread).

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:23

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 21:09

You need to break down where the additional pupils are. My old school has raised PAN above capacity. Ask the more knowledgable people if this is worth pursuing. Are they already prejudicing the education of Dc by having an pan larger than capacity anyway? @PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge

When I worked it out.. not including sixth form, they have 289 spaces from the 1661 pupils from the info I have. So I’m wondering if there’s 289 in sixth form or if they are holding back some info somewhere

OP posts:
Itstarts · 02/05/2023 21:24

It doesn't work like that. You won't get anywhere trying to "weaken their case". You can only win by showing that the admission process was incorrectly administered or that it would be detrimental to your dd to go elsewhere. Legal detrimental and parental detrimental are very different.

Medical grounds are really only for cases like a wheelchair user applying for a specific school because it's single story.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:26

Itstarts · 02/05/2023 21:24

It doesn't work like that. You won't get anywhere trying to "weaken their case". You can only win by showing that the admission process was incorrectly administered or that it would be detrimental to your dd to go elsewhere. Legal detrimental and parental detrimental are very different.

Medical grounds are really only for cases like a wheelchair user applying for a specific school because it's single story.

Apparently that’s not not the case according to the experts on here. My child doesn’t have an EHCP but has a diagnosis of a disorder that is classed as a disability so I would assume that is Legal detriment not just me saying she would be

OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 21:28

You’re really barking up the wrong tree. You can’t win this by “weakening their case”. You need to focus purely on the strength of yours. What is it about your child’s position that means this school is the only one they should go to.

SuperSue77 · 02/05/2023 21:29

Wolfiefan · 02/05/2023 20:28

I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. You need to prove that the specific needs of your child can only be met at this school or that the disadvantage they would face in being refused a place is sufficient to merit the school being forced to take an extra child they’re saying they don’t have room for.

OP already did this in an earlier thread and got lots of good advice from lots of the people advising on this one, so no one wants to go over it again. If you’re interested it’s here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4787048-in-preparation-for-appeal-panel-day

In Preparation for Appeal Panel Day | Mumsnet

So… like the title states… im attempting to mentally prepare myself for the day of the appeal. Im just wondering (& hoping im not the only one). D...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4787048-in-preparation-for-appeal-panel-day

Mousey23 · 02/05/2023 21:30

I think that the PAN is a red herring, as even if you win the argument and it is decided that they should go over PAN, they'll need to start at the top of the waiting list (probably a few hundred long) and start allocating the additional places that way. You are likely to put a lot of effort into making the case for some other children to get these places.

If you can show that your daughter should have been given a place, then they will be obliged to rectify this. They will be required to go over PAN to accommodate your daughter and deal with the consequences however they deal with it. So you don't need to argue about PAN at all.

The bad news - the medical criteria is an extreme situation. It is rarely about why your child must go to School X, it's more about why School Y and School Z can't meet their needs in the same way. Typical examples might be a partially sighted child who can't navigate 3 buses to get to school Y, or a wheelchair user that School Z can't accommodate on the ground floor, etc.

The good news - a class size of 28 does allow more to be squeezed in and may well be deliberate. Most schools of any size will lose a few appeals and have to deal with it. There is also significant shift in any admissions process, with kids having a back up place but go private, or moving out of the area. A handful just won't show up in September. If you're high on the waiting list, you're in with a chance anyway.

Original poster
Hye000 · 02/05/2023 21:33

SuperSue77 · 02/05/2023 21:29

OP already did this in an earlier thread and got lots of good advice from lots of the people advising on this one, so no one wants to go over it again. If you’re interested it’s here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4787048-in-preparation-for-appeal-panel-day

Show quote history

Thank you so much. I feel like I’m just repeating myself to different posters everytime, Ive been over my case a million times and have made it as strong as I can! I don’t need help with MY case, I need advice on any loop holes in the schools case!

OP posts:
Glorification · 02/05/2023 21:36

It’s a very strong case yaaaa