School has a very strong case

[Hye000]

As the title says… we have just received the school case against anymore pupils being admitted and it appears they have a strong case. Any tips or ideas of arguments to put forward to weaken their argument not to admit further…

to be honest, i appreciate the argument they have but I’m not asking them to admit anymore than one child so to me it’s hard to read it as being stronger than my argument for my child.

they were originally admitting 252 and have increased pan to 280. They say that they have 10 forms of 28 students and all classrooms are at full capacity, SEN areas and provisions are stretched and financially they are stretched etc etc.

can I argue that the receive extra funding for SEN pupils and that this should cover those children and the one 2 one teaching that is required?? I don’t know what else I can argue as I’m more conscious of the impact the my child if they were not to be admitted. They also argue about the narrow road that the school is on and that more people coming would add to health and safety, but my child would be walking so can I add that in to my speech, I don’t know.. feel like I’m clutching at straws!

any ideas please please please?

I don't think they are saying there are no medical issues, but that their school is not especially placed to deal with them; your daughter's needs can be met at other schools.

They have exactly 280 in all year except year 10 which is lower as this was before they increased to 280. The case says the classes are at full capacity and are designed for 28pupils so having extra pupils with be extremely detrimental. When you say it’s a pretty standard case, do you mean the schools argument is pretty standard in a sense that this is the argument that most schools give??

No, I meant that was the view from us applying on medical and social, when out into the criteria it was 0 on the list for medical and placed under the next criterion which was distance. So my question to them would be who or how was it decided and for what reason she was not placed in the criterion of M&S and Instead placed in distance

@Summerslimtime this is what I meant

Is the number of students in Y10 divisible by 28? If not, it may be worth asking how classes in this year group are organised. If they admit to going over 28 students in any of their classes, this may help strengthen your case? Possibly clutching at straws a bit though?

You could ask for class sizes and how the classrooms are designed for 28 students, maybe? Most secondary school class sizes are well over this (32+ is the norm in many schools now). Does this school have especially small rooms?

... and presumably arguing they were wrong not to use medical & social for your child?

In what way do her medical/social needs mean that this school is the right place to her? How would it be detrimental to her not to be awarded a place? (You need to show the detriment to her outweighs the stress of going over PAN for the school.)

There previous PAN was 252 which is sadly divisible to 9 classes of 28 🥴😓

but I could still ask how the classes are only able to take exactly 28

they state specifically that there science labs are only designed to fit 28students. Interesting at 28 as this is a new build school and very modern so I’m surprised that when building a new school it was designed to fit only 28 in class

But did you have exceptional circumstances and did you provide evidence of that?

you seem to be avoiding answering what makes this school unique in the area for being able to meet her needs which is the crux of your argument

Yes, I feel so but depends if the panel see it that way or if they see it the way the LA did.

I agree with @PatriciaHolm that this is a pretty standard case, so no, it is not a very strong case. If you attend a lot of appeals you will find that most schools put in an argument something like this. I've never written a case to refuse admission, but I've seen so many I could write one like this in my sleep.

The thing that stands out to me immediately is the statement at the foot of page 7 that, in addition to PAN, they have to allow for the admission of up to three hard-to-place pupils plus in-year admissions of EHCP children and children in care. That smacks of them holding back places for these children, so they can cope with going over PAN.

@prh47bridge
Are schools actually allowed to hold places for DC they don’t have or might never arrive? Many schools go over pan. Many appeals put them over pan!

It's so hard to get a place on medical and social grounds that you'd have to prove this the only school you're in the catchment for that can accommodate your DC's condition. Are you able to do that?

The school does sound badly designed from what they say, but I'm not sure there's much of an argument to be made about this. The school building is what it is, and it can't easily be changed. Changing science labs (however badly designed) usually isn't easy, so regardless of whether making them so small was a good decision, I'm not sure there's much mileage there. They also mention DT rooms etc, which again can be difficult to change.

It does sound like they run some classes above 28, because they mention smaller bottom sets- they contradict themselves a bit on this, I think, so it would be worth asking for clarity what is their largest current class size and how is this accommodated.

To me, their EAL and SEN percentages look quite high, but is the blacked out row averages for your LA? In which case they are still lower than average for the LA?

Have they ever gone over PAN- again the report suggests they have for ECHP/LAC students? Do you know the actual numbers of student in each year group, not just the PAN?

OP you haven’t given any good reason why your child needs to attend the school so this thread is pointless!

No it isn't!
The OP didn't ask for advice on her case for admitting her child. She asked about how to challenge the school's case, which is a standard part of an appeal.

Really appreciate your take on this as I actually saw this and thought that it forced a weakness on my argument not on there’s. Would you think this would be with me bringing up or asking about in anyway or do I hope that the panel see it??

You can bring it up but I think you'd still have to prove why your child deserves to take one of those places if the school is dictated by the LEA to keep them free.

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge one of my DD healthcare providers have said they will attend the appeal with me. Do you think the panel will put questions to them and will they give her a chance to offer her opinion

OP did you mean to leave the name of the school visible? Looks like you’ve blacked it out in some places but not others

The Admissions Code used to specifically prohibit this. The latest Admissions Code doesn't contain this prohibition but, in the same way the appeal panel can't take into account the possibility that pupils may leave, they can't take into account the possibility that pupils may join. If the school says it has to hold back places for 3 pupils arriving via the Fair Access Protocol, that means they can cope with 3 more pupils.

@PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge slight diversion but to most of us new to this we would probably see this as a strong case. It’s reasurring that it is not but what if so, what would make it a strong case?

You can bring it up but I think you'd still have to prove why your child deserves to take one of those places if the school is dictated by the LEA to keep them free

They cannot keep places free for possible admissions of any sort. The schools point here, I think, is that they are saying they might be forced to take pupils under FAP - fair access protocol- or if named in an EHCP, both of which would take them over PAN.

Which they could, but realistically, that's the case for all schools and not relevant to the appeal as it might not happen - same as the OPs point about pupils dropping out. It doesn't help them and should be ignored by the panel.

I would carefully probe that. I would ask them to clarify - do they mean that they expect 3 hard-to-place pupils so are keeping places for them? And how many places do they think will be taken by in-year EHCP children and children in care? Then, in my summing up (after both sides have presented their cases and the questioning is over, both sides are asked to sum up), I would point out that the school has said it can take X additional pupils as they are holding that many places for hard-to-place, etc.

Just to add, I agree with @PatriciaHolm. The statement should be ignored by the panel. Most cases I see don't include anything like this. But, if it sounds to the panel like they are holding places back, that would help.