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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

St Paul and King's

90 replies

veryworriedmum · 06/04/2023 07:24

My child is in year 5 and we have been in the UK for less than a year. We searched for a lot of websites and it seems the academic ranking of the 2 is quite similar, St Paul's may be higher overall but in some years King's is higher. Also, their Oxbridge acceptance seems quite similar, St Paul may be only marginally better and sent a bit more to US colleges.

However, among our friends, not just foreigners like us but also locals, they seem to have a firm pecking order in mind: Westminster, St Paul, King's, and almost all in this order, with some considering the gap between Westminster and St Paul only marginal while the gap between St Paul and King's much wider and some even consider King's half a notch below. All these don't quite match the academic results (A Level and GCSE) I saw on the school websites.

Can someone provide any insights? We are still new to the country and are in the learning process. I know the topic may be a bit sensitive to some, so I am equally happy if comments are provided via private messages to me.

OP posts:
photoshop · 06/04/2023 08:51

Insights into what?
They're all good schools. Some boys apply to all 3. Many don't get into all 3. Boys get into St Paul's and not Kings and vice versa.
Location plays a part- Kings will have less boys from North London and competes with the Grammars. Gut feel is also impacted and I know many a bright boy who didn't apply as they / their parents weren't keen on one or all of the schools.
They are certainly not the be all and end all and don't suit all boys and offers do get turned down.
I don't think one is better than the other.

HawaiiWake · 06/04/2023 11:47

Marketing really. All great top performing schools. The cultural fit, sports and locations could be a factor. Westminster goes heavy in overseas push for boarding so has higher visibility in overseas market.

SamPoodle123 · 06/04/2023 15:06

veryworriedmum · 06/04/2023 07:24

My child is in year 5 and we have been in the UK for less than a year. We searched for a lot of websites and it seems the academic ranking of the 2 is quite similar, St Paul's may be higher overall but in some years King's is higher. Also, their Oxbridge acceptance seems quite similar, St Paul may be only marginally better and sent a bit more to US colleges.

However, among our friends, not just foreigners like us but also locals, they seem to have a firm pecking order in mind: Westminster, St Paul, King's, and almost all in this order, with some considering the gap between Westminster and St Paul only marginal while the gap between St Paul and King's much wider and some even consider King's half a notch below. All these don't quite match the academic results (A Level and GCSE) I saw on the school websites.

Can someone provide any insights? We are still new to the country and are in the learning process. I know the topic may be a bit sensitive to some, so I am equally happy if comments are provided via private messages to me.

Where are you coming from? As some countries are behind the UK. You will need to see if your dc has catching up. In this case you will need an 11+ tutor. I suggest signing up to Atom learning and getting your ds to try the mock tests to see the scores. A lot of people that are not from here do not realise how competitive it is to get into the top schools for secondary. I am not from here, but have lived here a while and have spoken to other parents, ones that have gotten their dc in top private schools and ones that have not. My dd just did the 11+ and she got into Godolphin and Latymer.

SamPoodle123 · 06/04/2023 15:07

Meant to add, and she began prep end of May in year 5. So all is not lost if you have not started yet.

cty · 06/04/2023 15:33

Sorry which part of the world are you from and what was the previous curriculum?
If you are considering Westminster or St Paul's Boys, you kid is probably the top 5% of students in terms of academic abilities. So you shouldn't really worry about anything. Plus you have another 8 years to university, plenty can change in between. You should have a wide range of choices of schools in London and outside London. The best use of your time would be to get your boy to read more and get a good grasp of general knowledge, fiction, non-fiction, do some sports and other extra curricular activities.

2012mom · 06/04/2023 15:52

I don’t think you will get any meaningful replies from this kind of questions. You will receive lots of bashing from parents of King’s, who are not happy to be number 3. A bit less but still some bashing from SPS parents, who are not happy to be number 2, though you did say it is a close number 2 . Indeed even Westminster parents may not be happy, as they may consider the school further ahead of SPS.

And indeed you already have the answer! The pecking order you quoted what is usually perceived, in terms of prestige, academics, university destinations etc. You would see boys living close to SPS and KCS traveling to Westminster but not the reverse. You would see boys living in Wimbledon traveling to SPS but hardly any living in Barnes traveling to KCS.

No one can give you any insights, as you already got the answer. There is noting fishy or odd

photoshop · 06/04/2023 16:14

There are quite a few boys Barnes way who go to KCS.
OP - I have quite a few friends with boys ( and girls) at KCS and relatives at Westminster. They are all quite relaxed with nice normal kids. But they do say some of the parents and the hype around the schools is bonkers- tutoring is rife and and parts only want one of those schools at all cost - regardless of whether it suits the kids. Similar story with SPGS.
My DS got an offer from St P but I was never keen on it for him. Several boys at his current school also turned it down. His best friend is very happy there. They are very different boys with very different academic interests.

photoshop · 06/04/2023 16:15

And friends at St Paul's as well as KCS I meant to say.

Go visit the schools, see if you think they're a good fit and go from there. Don't get too swayed by other parents!

2012mom · 06/04/2023 16:24

OP: see! Not everyone is happy in the pecking order you suggested. There are far far fewer boys travelling from Barnes to KCS then boys travelling from Wimbledon to SPS.

ChocChipHandbag · 06/04/2023 16:25

They are both excellent schools. Your son will not be disadvantaged on an objective level by going to one rather than the other. Results/university acceptance statistics mean nothing on an individual level- there is only one of your son so all you need to know is that he is in a school that offers him the subjects he will do best at, taught well. Also that the social environment is right for him.

At this level there is absolutely no point in stressing over fine differences so you can reassure yourself that he is at “the best” school.

Personally, I’d be more concerned that a single sex school environment was not ideal for turning out a fully rounded young man. My son is at a highly-ranked co-ed independent school.

Original poster
veryworriedmum · 06/04/2023 16:33

Thanks for all the comments. I just want to learn a bit more and I do understand that differences may be small and may not be important at individual level.

We are from East Asia, and my son did a CAT test a few months ago, and together with internal assessments, we were told by the head that my son has a chance at these schools, and his chance will further improve if he makes adequate improvement in English over the next few months. Of course, we understand and were advised that we need to apply to a range of schools.

OP posts:
ChocChipHandbag · 06/04/2023 16:36

Your username suggests that you are very worried about this though?

ChocChipHandbag · 06/04/2023 16:39

Have you asked the Head of the current school for his/her thoughts on the relative merits of the Senior Schools?

photoshop · 06/04/2023 16:39

@2012mom - DS isn't at any of these schools so I have no gripe with the 'pecking orders'. I'm just a parent in SW London with teenagers and know lots of kids at lots of different schools. There is a hype around these schools that is not necessarily totally justified and parents get in a total tizz about them. I had a friend to stay the other day from outside London. Both her daughters are at Oxford- we went for a walk along the river and passed St P- she'd never even heard of it. They are not the be all and end all.

2012mom · 06/04/2023 16:48

@photoshop of course you would say so. I fully understand. That’s the reason why I said such questions (comparing schools) would only result in responses like these.

@veryworriedmum you already have the answer. no need to dig deeper.

My son will attend Latymer Upper (as I said in other threads), and didn’t apply to any of the 3. Hopefully you find my comments more objective

Original poster
veryworriedmum · 06/04/2023 16:51

@ChocChipHandbag of course we are worried. We have already been baffled by the different types of schools, different entry points, different curriculum etc in the UK.

My Head did explain the different cultures in these schools, but didn't say which one he preferred.

Which school is your son attending?

OP posts:
photoshop · 06/04/2023 16:51

2012mom · 06/04/2023 16:48

@photoshop of course you would say so. I fully understand. That’s the reason why I said such questions (comparing schools) would only result in responses like these.

@veryworriedmum you already have the answer. no need to dig deeper.

My son will attend Latymer Upper (as I said in other threads), and didn’t apply to any of the 3. Hopefully you find my comments more objective

I know more than a few boys who chose LU over ST P this year.

photoshop · 06/04/2023 16:57

@veryworriedmum - don't be worried. There's lots of schools. Have a look round them. Decide whether you want him to go for y7 or y9 if your prep goes up to that.
Have a think re Co-Ed or single sex.
Location is very important- somewhere your DS can travel to independently.
Most people sit for around 5 independents. Just make sure you have a good spread.
One of the 3 you mentioned may be perfect for your son but if they're not or he doesn't get in it's not the end of the world!
Take his views into account as well. My DD in particular was adamant she wasn't going to a particular school.

2012mom · 06/04/2023 16:58

@photoshop although DS will go to LU, I do admit that though there are boys who choose LU than SP, it is not more than a few. We like coed and that’s our choice and we believe it is better for my boy. Most will choose SP if they have offers from both. I don’t know why you dislike it so much.

photoshop · 06/04/2023 17:04

I don't dislike it! It's obviously a very good school! Wasn't right for DS but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad school. As I said, I know happy boys there.
I was just trying to point out to a 'very worried' OP that there is more to schools in London than the 3 she mentioned and that they are all broadly similar in terms of academics, outcomes etc.

Original poster
veryworriedmum · 06/04/2023 17:05

@photoshop Thanks for your advice. That's why I said we are learning.

OP posts:
ChocChipHandbag · 06/04/2023 17:06

Please try not to forget that Senior School is a place where your boy will spend his teenage years, a time that can be tough and socially/emotionally difficult. Don’t think of it as a means to an end in terms of “best results to get into best university”. Think of it as choosing the best possible environment for him to spend 6 years of his life and be happy. An academic child will do well academically anywhere, but an academic child in an environment that makes him truly happy will absolutely flourish.

To put this in perspective- I went to an underperforming state comprehensive school in a small town. I was bright and ended up going to Cambridge. My life/career since then has put me firmly in the same earning bracket as the kind of families who send their kids to independent school, and I feel entirely comfortable with them socially. Many of them were privately educated themselves so don’t know any different.

My husband is also very bright and we are pretty sure that DS has got the genes to get good A levels no matter where he goes to school. However I don’t want him to be like me and find himself bullied by the cool kids for wanting to learn, putting up with disruptive and antisocial behaviour or having limited opportunity for drama and music, mediocre teachers who don’t look beyond the curriculum and minimal sports facilities. I hated school and could not wait to get out. My husband went to a rural single sex private school and doesn’t want our DS to be educated in a single sex environment because he did not enjoy it.

So we are sending our son to a particular school not to make sure that he gets good results, but to do our best to ensure that those 6 years are happier for him than they were for us. No guarantees, of course, but we are using our luxury of having a choice as best we can.

HawaiiWake · 06/04/2023 17:22

@ChocChipHandbag , bravo!!! It is a personal fit of school and DC. Not academic only but sports, dramas, music and school trips etc.

ChocChipHandbag · 06/04/2023 17:52

veryworriedmum · 06/04/2023 16:51

@ChocChipHandbag of course we are worried. We have already been baffled by the different types of schools, different entry points, different curriculum etc in the UK.

My Head did explain the different cultures in these schools, but didn't say which one he preferred.

Which school is your son attending?

But it’s not about which school culture the head prefers, it’s which one he thinks will suit your DS best. You need to ask him that question, or speak to his class teacher.

Also, what I said about school environment above was not designed to drive you to to look for another set of objective metrics/third party opinions on non-academic factors. And no school will be a terrible fit for him so please don’t stress about that. What I was getting at was that you should visit those you can, put him in for a range and then you can tour them post-offer and get a feel for them then. My friend just did this and they ended up picking a school that was way down their initial list of preferences as it just had the right feel.

HoneyMobster · 06/04/2023 18:18

I honestly wouldn't worry OP. We live close to KCS so both my DS, and later on my DD, went there. If we'd lived closer to SP maybe they'd have gone there. At the age of 7 there was no way we'd have added a complicated school run in to get to SP so DS1 never applied.

Both DS1 and DD are at Oxford and DS2 is going to Princeton. But most importantly they really enjoyed life at KCS - academics, sports and music. Could SP or Westminster have been 'better'? I honestly don't know but we've all been very happy with KCS.